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post #1 of 125 Old 10-05-2018, 02:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Announcing ratbuddyssey - a tool for tweaking Audyssey MultEQ app files

Cornball name, I know, but it was that, or fraudyssey, and being a bit vain, I went with my name :P

Anyway:

I like the idea of the MultEQ app, but the execution left me wanting a bit more. I wanted to be able to precisely input my custom target curve points, rather than fiddling with a small touchscreen and/or an Android emulator. I wanted simple checkboxes, and I wanted all of the data on one screen, rather than having to flip through pages of a mobile-centric app. With some feedback and suggestions from the fine folks in the MultEQ app thread, I've done my best to make it happen.

Sometime tomorrow, when I've finished preliminary testing and cleaning up the UI a bit more, I'll be releasing an early test build of the program me and a few talented folks from Upwork have created. You'll be able to load in your .ady files, modify them by checking boxes and entering data, and saving the results (only to a new file for now, I don't want to mangle anyones files).

It's gonna be dangerous. You can alter fields which, I promise you, will completely break your .ady file. Don't change anything if you aren't really sure you know what it will do. Changing speaker sizes, crossovers, distances, levels, midrange compensation on/off, frequency cutoff, and target curve points and type, those should all be fine. Everything else is firmly in 'I wouldn't touch that, if I were you' territory.

I need testers. Load your .ady files into the program, change stuff, load the modified .ady file into the MultEQ app, and upload it to your receiver. I *hope* that nothing can be so broken by this program that a factory reset won't fix it, but I can't promise that. If you volunteer to test or decide to run the program, please do so with the understanding that you use the software at your own risk, and I make no promise that it won't break something. Again, it shouldn't break anything too badly, but if you put weird stuff in the fields or I messed up something I shouldn't have, there's a (small) chance of it hurting your receiver. If that's a scary thought to you, please hold off until the program has had some testing.

That said, I'm testing it on my SR8012 now, so I'm definitely putting my money where my mouth is

I'll post more details when the program is ready to be downloaded, and I'll make public a github repo with the source code, for folks who would prefer to compile it for themselves. PLEASE do feel free to suggest improvements, and please do report any bugs. If someone wants to contribute or fork the project, by all means, I'd welcome the help.

Please do understand that this is my first Windows desktop program, and my first time wrangling extra help from Upwork. I chose the tech I did because I started a new job working with C# and wanted to throw something together for practice. I know the project probably could have been done in a more cross-platform fashion, but I needed to do this particular tech stack to gain experience. I'm very happy with the performance as well. With my ~23mb .ady file from a 7.2.4 calibration, the program only uses around 250mb of ram, and opens and saves the files very quickly.

As of right now, this is what it looks like:



Just a few UI elements to tweak, a few menu items to fix, plus I'm doing some preliminary testing of custom curves (lower left of the image) to make sure they're at least somewhat functional, and then I'll throw it out there for any brave early testers.

Last edited by ratbuddy; 10-26-2018 at 05:21 PM.
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post #2 of 125 Old 10-05-2018, 02:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Release info:

(Updated link to version 0.2.1 on 1-3-19)

http://github.com/ratbuddy/ratbuddy...ses/tag/v0.2.1

The source is freely available, and contributions are very much welcomed. If you prefer to compile it yourself, go nuts as well. What I could really use is some help with packaging the application so it's more user friendly, a .msi or something with the ability to update over itself. If I have time, I'll figure out how to do that. Until then, here we are

I've updated to use a simple .zip file with no installation needed. Just unzip somewhere and run ratbuddyssey.exe, that should be all you need to do.
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Last edited by ratbuddy; 01-03-2019 at 06:55 PM.
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post #3 of 125 Old 10-05-2018, 02:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Known issues:
  • MultEQ app crashes if you change the distance in my program then load the .ady in the official app.
  • Reference and flat seem to be swapped, and it mutes flat when you select reference in ratbuddyssey.
  • Should make channel 55 (second subwoofer) mostly non-editable, since it's not a 'real' channel, the subs are measured together in channel 54 and 55 is just for distance and +/- dB of the second sub.
  • Give 'Frequency Cutoff' an 'apply to all channels' button

Last edited by ratbuddy; 10-29-2018 at 10:19 AM.
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post #4 of 125 Old 10-05-2018, 02:51 PM
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Wow. Very interested in this. Subbed.

Also, LOL at "fraudyssey".
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post #5 of 125 Old 10-05-2018, 04:06 PM
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Any chance we'll be able to edit the EQ filters that Audyssey applies, instead of editing the target curve itself?
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post #6 of 125 Old 10-05-2018, 04:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bochoss View Post
Any chance we'll be able to edit the EQ filters that Audyssey applies, instead of editing the target curve itself?
Sadly, no chance of that. That part is done based on the parameters (including impulse responses) in these .ady files, but it's done by the app itself (or on the receiver, if you don't use the app) and is not something I can change. Well, I could, but it would involve more reverse engineering than I want to do, and would probably ultimately end up with a lawsuit, or at least a nasty letter from a lawyer telling me to stop. Letting folks change the parameters in the file, while leaving untouched what Audyssey actually does with the file, is about all I'm willing to risk. Sorry!
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post #7 of 125 Old 10-05-2018, 11:38 PM
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I’m curious, why would anyone change things other than the curve in an external editor?

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post #8 of 125 Old 10-05-2018, 11:40 PM
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Hi, very useful tool!
A question: I see that frequency and db attenuation or boost can be edited. What about the "Q" of the filter? Can be edited as well?
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post #9 of 125 Old 10-06-2018, 07:38 AM
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so for the lamers and cliff noters like myself, how can I use this tool for something like a Marantz AV8802A? How do I access the audyssey configuration file in the unit?
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post #10 of 125 Old 10-06-2018, 11:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post
I’m curious, why would anyone change things other than the curve in an external editor?
I dunno, I wanted to, so I assumed other people might want to as well. Personally, I'd rather just make all my changes in one place, and I find the 'one page full of checkboxes and stuff' interface more usable than the phone app, where everything is hidden behind layers of menus. Obviously, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and you might only want to use it for curve editing - that's fine!

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Originally Posted by ricren View Post
Hi, very useful tool!
A question: I see that frequency and db attenuation or boost can be edited. What about the "Q" of the filter? Can be edited as well?
Sadly, I don't think so. The curve editor in the app only generates data in frequency:boost/cut pairs, so those are all I can change. Maybe there are other hidden parameters, but I sorta doubt it.

That said, I have no idea how many target curve points you can use. You could potentially simulate a wide or narrow Q filter by adding some intermediate points either closer or farther from the center point, and it might work. I don't know - that's one of the first things that needs to be tested

If it turns out to support many custom curve points, I'll add support for shelf filters and other nifty stuff. If it turns out to only support a few custom curve points, this whole thing was a big waste of time

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Originally Posted by ssabripo View Post
so for the lamers and cliff noters like myself, how can I use this tool for something like a Marantz AV8802A? How do I access the audyssey configuration file in the unit?
You'd need a receiver or preamp which supports the official Audyssey MultEQ app - I don't think the 8802 does, but I could be wrong on that. Sorry!

edit: Hmm.. I think the receiver only stores the already-calculated correction curves, but maybe there's something I can do? Can you (or anyone with a non-MultEQ-app-supporting receiver) try backing up your settings to USB and zipping up whatever files it puts there, then emailing them to me at my username here at gmail? Thanks!

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post #11 of 125 Old 10-06-2018, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ricren View Post
Hi, very useful tool!
A question: I see that frequency and db attenuation or boost can be edited. What about the "Q" of the filter? Can be edited as well?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ratbuddy View Post
Sadly, I don't think so. The curve editor in the app only generates data in frequency:boost/cut pairs, so those are all I can change. Maybe there are other hidden parameters, but I sorta doubt it.
Nice work, ratbuddy!

I wonder if this is why when you try to make a precise edit (very narrow frequency range) to the curve with the app, it just collapses and won't let you get that close? Ie. you're trying to narrow the "Q" beyond the abilities of the app or data collected.

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post #12 of 125 Old 10-06-2018, 12:30 PM
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does this work on the files when we backup the Audyssey config on usb drive ?

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post #13 of 125 Old 10-06-2018, 12:39 PM - Thread Starter
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does this work on the files when we backup the Audyssey config on usb drive ?
99.99% sure the answer is no, those files contain the already-calculated correction curves. Feel free to send me a config and I'll confirm.
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post #14 of 125 Old 10-06-2018, 03:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Did some testing, and it works. At least partially, which is better than not-at-all-ly. In the first image here, you can see a bunch of random filters I threw in, and their effect on the output after uploading the .ady to my SR8012:



Red is the existing default target curve, blue is my target points from the right side of the image. Looks OK, but wait, nothing happened above ~500hz. Hmm.

Oh. Right. For another test, I set the front channels to only correct up to 487 hz. I forgot to change it back when I was done.



Purple is the run after removing the 487 hz limit and letting it correct all the way to 20,000 hz. Much better

See how wide the 2,500 hz cut is? I would appreciate some help from folks, testing different data point arrangements to see how narrow we can get the filters. If we add one at 2,490 with 0dB and another at 2,510 with 0dB, will it be a very narrow filter, or will it reduce the depth of the -12dB filter to meet some slope requirement? Who knows! Let's test!

A few more basic tests on my end tonight or tomorrow, then I'll figure out how to package it up for test release.
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post #15 of 125 Old 10-06-2018, 04:02 PM
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denon x4300
some files extracted from the config.tar saved on usb
Attached Files
File Type: txt dsp_save_load.txt (704.0 KB, 29 views)
File Type: txt dcs.db.extensionchangedto.txt (38.0 KB, 16 views)
File Type: txt rendering_profile.noextensionchangedto.txt (164 Bytes, 18 views)
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display - vizio p65
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post #16 of 125 Old 10-06-2018, 04:20 PM - Thread Starter
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I looked at the files, they're binary, kinda interesting, and beyond my comprehension. If someone else can decode them, great, but it won't be me
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post #17 of 125 Old 10-06-2018, 05:19 PM
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Does the audyssey app allow you to set crossovers per speaker pair before running the calculations? If not, will this app allow for it? Looking at the screenshot from the UI it appears rat buddy’s app at least does this. This was one of the most useful features of audyssey pro when I had it. It allowed the user to change crossover of the speaker pairs without mucking up the blend with the sub.


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post #18 of 125 Old 10-06-2018, 06:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbaucom View Post
Does the audyssey app allow you to set crossovers per speaker pair before running the calculations? If not, will this app allow for it? Looking at the screenshot from the UI it appears rat buddy’s app at least does this. This was one of the most useful features of audyssey pro when I had it. It allowed the user to change crossover of the speaker pairs without mucking up the blend with the sub.
Is that something different from setting the crossover in the receiver UI? I think that's all the app lets you do, basically change the same setting you could in the receiver menus.
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post #19 of 125 Old 10-06-2018, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ratbuddy View Post
Is that something different from setting the crossover in the receiver UI? I think that's all the app lets you do, basically change the same setting you could in the receiver menus.


Yes at least it was with the pro kit. With the pro kit, you could set the crossover before the filter calculations to send to the avr. With standard audyssey, it sets a 12 dB per octave roll off in the curve and corrects phase but only at the crossover chosen by the avr. This was why people found the audyssey distance tweak necessary when they upped their crossovers from what was originally determined in the calculation. With the pro kit, you could change the crossover to your own preference( above the detected -3db point) before calculating the filters. This allowed for the proper rolloff and phase to be calculated at a crossover of your choosing. Audyssey equipped avrs all have internal crossovers with 12 dB per octave rolloff in the speakers and 24db per octave in the sub. The audyssey calculation takes this into account and shapes a 12dB per octave rolll off at the calculated crossover point. When paired with 12db per octave filter in the avr you are supposed to end up with a 24db per octave linkwitz Riley crossover.

I will post a couple of links to better explain what I am trying to say when I get to my desktop.


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post #20 of 125 Old 10-06-2018, 07:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbaucom View Post
Yes at least it was with the pro kit. With the pro kit, you could set the crossover before the filter calculations to send to the avr. With standard audyssey, it sets a 12 dB per octave roll off in the curve and corrects phase but only at the crossover chosen by the avr. This was why people found the audyssey distance tweak necessary when they upped their crossovers from what was originally determined in the calculation. With the pro kit, you could change the crossover to your own preference( above the detected -3db point) before calculating the filters. This allowed for the proper rolloff and phase to be calculated at a crossover of your choosing. Audyssey equipped avrs all have internal crossovers with 12 dB per octave rolloff in the speakers and 24db per octave in the sub. The audyssey calculation takes this into account and shapes a 12dB per octave rolll off at the calculated crossover point. When paired with 12db per octave filter in the avr you are supposed to end up with a 24db per octave linkwitz Riley crossover.

I will post a couple of links to better explain what I am trying to say when I get to my desktop.


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Read this to better explain how the pro kit used to work and the difference between it and the avr based version of audyssey when changing crossovers.



http://audyssey.zendesk.com/hc/en-u...and-subwoofer-
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post #21 of 125 Old 10-07-2018, 12:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbaucom View Post
Does the audyssey app allow you to set crossovers per speaker pair before running the calculations? If not, will this app allow for it? Looking at the screenshot from the UI it appears rat buddy’s app at least does this. This was one of the most useful features of audyssey pro when I had it. It allowed the user to change crossover of the speaker pairs without mucking up the blend with the sub.


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I tried Audyssey calibration with the amp (SR-6011) and the app last night with totally identical speaker, furniture positions one after the other. No, you cannot edit crossovers before the calibration only AFTER. But there was a more interesting and somewhat mysterious thing about the crossovers: The app crossover ranges are wider than what the amp finds. My front left right tower speakers were being X-overed @ 60Hz by the amp while the app lowered them down to 40 Hz and it increased the X-overs on every other channel (from 80-90-120 Hz to 120-150 Hz). Has anyone else experienced this? I repeat the room was identical and I finished the whole 8 point measurement in almost complete silence each time.
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post #22 of 125 Old 10-07-2018, 05:24 AM
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Originally Posted by serko70 View Post
I tried Audyssey calibration with the amp (SR-6011) and the app last night with totally identical speaker, furniture positions one after the other. No, you cannot edit crossovers before the calibration only AFTER. But there was a more interesting and somewhat mysterious thing about the crossovers: The app crossover ranges are wider than what the amp finds. My front left right tower speakers were being X-overed @ 60Hz by the amp while the app lowered them down to 40 Hz and it increased the X-overs on every other channel (from 80-90-120 Hz to 120-150 Hz). Has anyone else experienced this? I repeat the room was identical and I finished the whole 8 point measurement in almost complete silence each time.


Thanks. To be clear, I’m not asking about changing them before the measurements but rather before the filters are created.

With the pro kit, you would take the measurements and your speakers usable in room speaker response would be determined.(-3db). At that point you had the option to choose your crossover as long as it was above this point before the creation of the audyssey filters. Choosing your crossover before the creation of the filters allowed the correct rolloff to be incorporated into the audyssey filters.

I was hoping someone with the app could measure and see if it does the same thing. I am hoping it does. Looking at the screen shot above, I don’t think the filters have been created yet. It appears to be before the user adds custom eq points.



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post #23 of 125 Old 10-07-2018, 06:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbaucom View Post
Thanks. To be clear, I’m not asking about changing them before the measurements but rather before the filters are created.

With the pro kit, you would take the measurements and your speakers usable in room speaker response would be determined.(-3db). At that point you had the option to choose your crossover as long as it was above this point before the creation of the audyssey filters. Choosing your crossover before the creation of the filters allowed the correct rolloff to be incorporated into the audyssey filters.

I was hoping someone with the app could measure and see if it does the same thing. I am hoping it does. Looking at the screen shot above, I don’t think the filters have been created yet. It appears to be before the user adds custom eq points.



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Ok I understand now. You have the option to change crossovers only after the filtering is finished. There's an option to lower the highest frequency filtering will be applied for each speaker but no option to increase the lowest freq. filtering starts.
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post #24 of 125 Old 10-07-2018, 06:20 AM - Thread Starter
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With the app, the filters aren't created until you do the 'upload to receiver' thing. You can still change the crossovers in the receiver UI after that, though, and it doesn't recalculate anything.
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post #25 of 125 Old 10-07-2018, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by ratbuddy View Post
With the app, the filters aren't created until you do the 'upload to receiver' thing. You can still change the crossovers in the receiver UI after that, though, and it doesn't recalculate anything.


Ok. Thanks! This means the filter calculation does take the crossover into account as long as you do it in the app before uploading it to the receiver. If this is the case, you should not ever change the crossover in the receiver only in the app. Changing it in the receiver could mess up the crossover region.

It would be nice to see some measurements to verify. If it is the case, then the only difference between the app and pro is the ability to use a calibrated microphone.


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post #26 of 125 Old 10-07-2018, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbaucom View Post
Ok. Thanks! This means the filter calculation does take the crossover into account as long as you do it in the app before uploading it to the receiver. If this is the case, you should not ever change the crossover in the receiver only in the app. Changing it in the receiver could mess up the crossover region.

It would be nice to see some measurements to verify. If it is the case, then the only difference between the app and pro is the ability to use a calibrated microphone.


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You could also take more measurements with pro(up to 32). I never found going above 8 to make much difference.


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post #27 of 125 Old 10-07-2018, 08:48 AM - Thread Starter
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It would be nice to see some measurements to verify.
I don't mind taking measurements to check, but I'd need instructions or at least an overall idea of what to look for.
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post #28 of 125 Old 10-07-2018, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbaucom View Post
Ok. Thanks! This means the filter calculation does take the crossover into account as long as you do it in the app before uploading it to the receiver. If this is the case, you should not ever change the crossover in the receiver only in the app. Changing it in the receiver could mess up the crossover region.
The calculations of the filters in the app do not take into account your custom crossover.
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post #29 of 125 Old 10-07-2018, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ratbuddy View Post
I don't mind taking measurements to check, but I'd need instructions or at least an overall idea of what to look for.


1. With one of your speaker pairs with a low detected crossover say 40hz, raise the crossover in the app as high as you can.
2. Send information to avr and calculate filters
3. In the avr, lower the crossover for the pair back downtown the original point detected by audyssey
4.take a measurement in REW if one of the speakers you changed.
5. Check to see if you see a roughly 12dB per octave rolloff at the crossover point you set in the app or it stays flat down to the roughly the original crossover set by audyssey


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post #30 of 125 Old 10-07-2018, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ToBeFrank View Post
The calculations of the filters in the app do not take into account your custom crossover.


You may very well be right though I don’t see the point of adding the setting to the app if that is the case. Either way, a measurement will tell us for sure.


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