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post #3211 of 3313 Old 01-07-2019, 12:26 PM
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I haven't used the app in a while now. Was there ever a consensus with regards to low frequency roll off using the app as opposed to Audyssey built into the AVR? Several people showed that the app was inferior since it rolled off the subs early. Is that a universal problem, or is it a case by case situation? Since I have a 5.1.4 system it takes a decent amount of time just to run normal sweeps with the AVR. It's also hard to find 30 straight minutes without some kind of sound interference. Then I'd need an additional set with the app, then I'd need to swap back and forth with REW to see for sure. I've had real bad luck with the app completing sending the info to the AVR, so I'm hesitant to spend a bunch of time trying to find out on my own system. I already paid for the app and like the idea of added flexibility, but not at the expense of potentially limiting my subs performance.
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post #3212 of 3313 Old 01-07-2019, 01:01 PM
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MultEQ Editor: New App for Denon & Marantz AV Receivers & Pre/Pros

Quote:
Originally Posted by timosilakka View Post
Maybe the ratbuddyssey app would be easier
to use... Just wondering what would be best curve to use (custom).


Where can I find this program?

EDIT: found it, but not compatible with macOS natively.

Last edited by IMWhizzle; 01-07-2019 at 01:21 PM.
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post #3213 of 3313 Old 01-07-2019, 01:22 PM
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I asked Audyssey about MRC and limiting MultiEQ frequency and they confirmed that if you limit the frequency MRC is not engaged.
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post #3214 of 3313 Old 01-07-2019, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spidacat View Post
I haven't used the app in a while now. Was there ever a consensus with regards to low frequency roll off using the app as opposed to Audyssey built into the AVR? Several people showed that the app was inferior since it rolled off the subs early. Is that a universal problem, or is it a case by case situation? Since I have a 5.1.4 system it takes a decent amount of time just to run normal sweeps with the AVR. It's also hard to find 30 straight minutes without some kind of sound interference. Then I'd need an additional set with the app, then I'd need to swap back and forth with REW to see for sure. I've had real bad luck with the app completing sending the info to the AVR, so I'm hesitant to spend a bunch of time trying to find out on my own system. I already paid for the app and like the idea of added flexibility, but not at the expense of potentially limiting my subs performance.

At least my REW measurements showed this roll-off when I was comparing Audyssey app and Dspeaker Antimode 2.0 for sub eq. I am hoping that this can be fixed by using the custom curve but seems very difficult to create straight line (starting from 20hz lowering towards higher freq). I only get wierd snake shapes...

Maybe someone is wiser regarding this roll-off or is there any hope that future updates will ”fix” this?
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post #3215 of 3313 Old 01-07-2019, 05:48 PM
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I’ve been doing more tests going back and fourth between limiting MultiEQ and leaving EQ for the full spectrum. MRC definitely needs to be turned off on my setup. It completely removes the character and detail of my speakers. When I look at the results with EQ applied, Audyssey does a very good job cleaning things up, all of my speakers are incredibly Flat until the rolloff with virtually no dips or spikes so there is a definite upside to EQing the full spectrum. For testing I revisited the movies I demoed the same movies and content previously with no EQ. The first thing that stood out was overhead effects from my 140sa’s. They sounded more natural, fuller and detailed with better prioritization. Surround activity was more seamless and more controlled. Also, my mains had slightly better imaging but also sounded smoother with more pinpoint accuracy. My 440 center sounds more cleaned up and natural but still retains the clarity and detail that I love about the speaker. My center seems to benefit the most with MultiEQ. My dual SVS subs seem to blend better and LFE is more present using the app. When I calibrate via my Denon subs are always set at -5.5, with the app they are both set at -3.5. So overall when I leave MultiEQ on fir the full spectrum my room sounds more controlled and balanced. My speakers seem to disappear more into my room but now that I can disengage MRC the detail and sparkle is back. The slight rolloff on curve 1 sounds great at all levels but especially pushing near reference volumes which I often do. I definitely think the app is worth it, now I have insight into what’s going on and it’s peace of mind knowing Audyssey fixes the issues of my room. It’s worth it just to be able to turn off MRC. I’ll be leaving the entire spectrum eq’d.
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post #3216 of 3313 Old 01-08-2019, 09:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post
Great! playing around with the app has been tons of fun, trying the various options really helps dial in the desired sound one wants
I have been avoiding the app despite paying for it, after I discovered that using it on my Nexus 6P was so limited by the (comparatively) tiny screen. I have stuck to the built in calibration on my Marantz 8805. It is obvious from all the excited comment that everyone else must be using a bigger screen. Would someone care to advise what I should using to make the app properly visible and thus controlable.
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post #3217 of 3313 Old 01-08-2019, 10:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJB of Poole View Post
I have been avoiding the app despite paying for it, after I discovered that using it on my Nexus 6P was so limited by the (comparatively) tiny screen. I have stuck to the built in calibration on my Marantz 8805. It is obvious from all the excited comment that everyone else must be using a bigger screen. Would someone care to advise what I should using to make the app properly visible and thus controlable.
The bigger the better, that's not a detail that you may like but true none the less. But remember all the options Editor offers like mrc switching, high end curve choice, and freq limiting are easily seen on a small screen. Only when you want to mess with creating custom curves for individual speakers do you need larger viewing.

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post #3218 of 3313 Old 01-09-2019, 06:26 AM
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I’ve spent more time using the app trying different options. I’ve concluded that DEQ is no longer needed in my room. I’ve been using DEQ for years dating back to when I was living in apartments and left it on when my house was built and setup a dedicated theatre. My ex hated loud levels, she would always complain so I found it useful. Since I’ve been going back and fourth using the EQ full spectrum and not, trying different crossovers etc. I decided to go back to the basics. I set my crossovers back to 80hz for my front sound stage and 100hz for surrounds and 150hz for my Atmos modules. Once again I limited EQ to 300hz. I turned off MRC and turned off DEQ. Well I’m back to sonic bliss. DEQ exaggerated bass and surrounds way too much. I also noted the exaggeration in the high frequencies which really affected the sound in limiting EQ. It was making my speakers sound a little sloppy with DEQ engaged. Now with limiting MultiEQ and turning off DEQ I can push volume louder and the clarity is back. I also notice a significant difference in Atmos tracks. DEQ was drowning out my Atmos modules due to the exaggerated bass and surround activity. I like the character of my Klipsch RP’s too much and turning off the DEQ puts the characteristics of the speakers front and center. I think I am finally done playing around with it. I definitely prefer using the app.
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post #3219 of 3313 Old 01-09-2019, 07:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rosstg View Post
I’ve spent more time using the app trying different options. I’ve concluded that DEQ is no longer needed in my room. I’ve been using DEQ for years dating back to when I was living in apartments and left it on when my house was built and setup a dedicated theatre. My ex hated loud levels, she would always complain so I found it useful. Since I’ve been going back and fourth using the EQ full spectrum and not, trying different crossovers etc. I decided to go back to the basics. I set my crossovers back to 80hz for my front sound stage and 100hz for surrounds and 150hz for my Atmos modules. Once again I limited EQ to 300hz. I turned off MRC and turned off DEQ. Well I’m back to sonic bliss. DEQ exaggerated bass and surrounds way too much. I also noted the exaggeration in the high frequencies which really affected the sound in limiting EQ. It was making my speakers sound a little sloppy with DEQ engaged. Now with limiting MultiEQ and turning off DEQ I can push volume louder and the clarity is back. I also notice a significant difference in Atmos tracks. DEQ was drowning out my Atmos modules due to the exaggerated bass and surround activity. I like the character of my Klipsch RP’s too much and turning off the DEQ puts the characteristics of the speakers front and center. I think I am finally done playing around with it. I definitely prefer using the app.

Did you use a custom curve or just Audyssey reference/flat? For me it seems that audyssey curve is a bit too flat/low for bass without DEQ (under ref level).
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post #3220 of 3313 Old 01-09-2019, 07:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timosilakka View Post
Did you use a custom curve or just Audyssey reference/flat? For me it seems that audyssey curve is a bit too flat/low for bass without DEQ (under ref level).
No custom curve. I don’t use EQ above 300hz which negates the curve. I turn off MRC and DEQ. Both Reference and Flat curve take the character out of my speakers. I find the sound dull and dry, Flat sounds sterile. Turning off DEQ sounds much better in my room. The bass sounded sloppy and bloated with it engaged. Off sounds far more accurate and precise. Much more nuanced with the same impact. I also use sub risers that really help. I was very reluctant switching it off but I grew tired of always fussing. I’m glad I did.
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post #3221 of 3313 Old 01-09-2019, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rosstg View Post
No custom curve. I don’t use EQ above 300hz which negates the curve. I turn off MRC and DEQ. Both Reference and Flat curve take the character out of my speakers. I find the sound dull and dry, Flat sounds sterile. Turning off DEQ sounds much better in my room. The bass sounded sloppy and bloated with it engaged. Off sounds far more accurate and precise. Much more nuanced with the same impact. I also use sub risers that really help. I was very reluctant switching it off but I grew tired of always fussing. I’m glad I did.


Audyssey curve is then used for under 300hz. I might end up doing this also but don’t like standard curves (under 300hz or so since they cut the lower bass).
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post #3222 of 3313 Old 01-09-2019, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timosilakka View Post
Audyssey curve is then used for under 300hz. I might end up doing this also but don’t like standard curves (under 300hz or so since they cut the lower bass).
Right, I meant the curve isn’t carried out across the spectrum. My bass is flat, I don’t have the drop off like many have experienced. I have dual SVS subs that dig down 19hz. I’m noticing without DEQ my bass is much better with more definition and the rest of my speakers sound far superior with EQ set at 300hz.
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post #3223 of 3313 Old 01-09-2019, 03:14 PM
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You can improve things further by dialing in a "house" curve which is really useful when you're not using DEQ. Flat bass doesn't sound natural at lower than reference volume.

What I have done is bump my sub up about 6dB at 30Hz and then let it roll off from there, then I bump all my speakers by about 3-4dB at 100Hz and let them taper down. So you get a rising response in the low end that sounds more natural than flat bass.
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post #3224 of 3313 Old 01-09-2019, 06:31 PM
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I love the bass I’m getting now. It’s impactful but not boomy. I haven’t felt a need to bump them up. Any critical listening in my room is done near reference anyway. My room shakes as is. I can see why others might want more though but for me it sounds natural.
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post #3225 of 3313 Old 01-09-2019, 09:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
You can improve things further by dialing in a "house" curve which is really useful when you're not using DEQ. Flat bass doesn't sound natural at lower than reference volume.

What I have done is bump my sub up about 6dB at 30Hz and then let it roll off from there, then I bump all my speakers by about 3-4dB at 100Hz and let them taper down. So you get a rising response in the low end that sounds more natural than flat bass.

My app WILL NOT create a house curve... seems like it will only do cuts... no boosts.
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post #3226 of 3313 Old 01-10-2019, 02:19 PM
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My app WILL NOT create a house curve... seems like it will only do cuts... no boosts.
That's weird.... here's a measurement I took of my FR/FL speakers crossed over to the subs with the house curve I dialed in through the app. Audyssey EQ is cut off above 1kHZ, I shaped the sub a bit and then raised the main speakers up at ~100Hz a few dB so they slope down to the 1kHz cutoff.

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post #3227 of 3313 Old 01-10-2019, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
That's weird.... here's a measurement I took of my FR/FL speakers crossed over to the subs with the house curve I dialed in through the app.

Nice job!

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post #3228 of 3313 Old 01-11-2019, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
That's weird.... here's a measurement I took of my FR/FL speakers crossed over to the subs with the house curve I dialed in through the app. Audyssey EQ is cut off above 1kHZ, I shaped the sub a bit and then raised the main speakers up at ~100Hz a few dB so they slope down to the 1kHz cutoff.
Wow... very nice! I'm probably dong it wrong, or something... but I get the weirdest results sometimes from just the smallest change.
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post #3229 of 3313 Old 01-11-2019, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
That's weird.... here's a measurement I took of my FR/FL speakers crossed over to the subs with the house curve I dialed in through the app. Audyssey EQ is cut off above 1kHZ, I shaped the sub a bit and then raised the main speakers up at ~100Hz a few dB so they slope down to the 1kHz cutoff.





The two pictures look quite similar to me. Any legend what curve and picture is before/after/left/right?
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post #3230 of 3313 Old 01-11-2019, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
That's weird.... here's a measurement I took of my FR/FL speakers crossed over to the subs with the house curve I dialed in through the app. Audyssey EQ is cut off above 1kHZ, I shaped the sub a bit and then raised the main speakers up at ~100Hz a few dB so they slope down to the 1kHz cutoff.

I tried using the app for the first time last night, I'm having the same issue where the app won't apply any gains, only cuts. I tried applying modest gain (+3.0dB) on my subwoofer curve starting at about 40hz. Saved and uploaded it to the receiver, ran another REW sweep, literally identical results.

Any suggestions?
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post #3231 of 3313 Old 01-11-2019, 11:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spidacat View Post
I haven't used the app in a while now. Was there ever a consensus with regards to low frequency roll off using the app as opposed to Audyssey built into the AVR?
Quote:
Originally Posted by timosilakka View Post
At least my REW measurements showed this roll-off when I was comparing Audyssey app and Dspeaker Antimode 2.0 for sub eq.
Maybe someone is wiser regarding this roll-off or is there any hope that future updates will ”fix” this?
Jeff Clark of Audyssey spoke with Kal Rubinson of Stereophile for his review of the Marantz 8805 on the subject of the roll off and more. A good review by Kal and more info on the app.



"First, the low frequencies are handled a bit differently between Pro and the app. This is mostly attributed to an improvement to room-correction accuracy, but the app does apply a 3dB rolloff at a minimum of 20Hz, even for large, capable speakers. We're evaluating ways to improve how that is handled. Although reasonable in the majority of cases, it can cut the lowest lows just a little bit for some users. "
"Low-Frequency Rolloff—This is applied not only to Large speakers but to subwoofers, and at the moment can't be overridden. That's probably much more significant for home-theater users than for music-only listeners."
Read more at http://www.stereophile.com/content/...JYiUVP8wwLx.99

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post #3232 of 3313 Old 01-11-2019, 11:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal1950 View Post
Jeff Clark of Audyssey spoke with Kal Rubinson of Stereophile for his review of the Marantz 8805 on the subject of the roll off and more. A good review by Kal and more info on the app.



"First, the low frequencies are handled a bit differently between Pro and the app. This is mostly attributed to an improvement to room-correction accuracy, but the app does apply a 3dB rolloff at a minimum of 20Hz, even for large, capable speakers. We're evaluating ways to improve how that is handled. Although reasonable in the majority of cases, it can cut the lowest lows just a little bit for some users. "
"Low-Frequency Rolloff—This is applied not only to Large speakers but to subwoofers, and at the moment can't be overridden. That's probably much more significant for home-theater users than for music-only listeners."
Read more at http://www.stereophile.com/content/...JYiUVP8wwLx.99

I can’t think of any reason why this low frequency roll-off was ever implemented and don’t understand why the h*** it is taking so long to at least give the users an option to remove this. Should be work done in few minutes.
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post #3233 of 3313 Old 01-12-2019, 12:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timosilakka View Post
I can’t think of any reason why this low frequency roll-off was ever implemented and don’t understand why the h*** it is taking so long to at least give the users an option to remove this. Should be work done in few minutes.
I believe the rolloff at 20hz is the side effect of the intended very low freq filter. It was probably put there to make the app idiot proof and stop people from trying to make a 8" sub flat down to 20 hz by introducing a 20db boost there. Blown up amps and speakers left and right would be the result.
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post #3234 of 3313 Old 01-12-2019, 12:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal1950 View Post
I believe the rolloff at 20hz is the side effect of the intended very low freq filter. It was probably put there to make the app idiot proof and stop people from trying to make a 8" sub flat down to 20 hz by introducing a 20db boost there. Blown up amps and speakers left and right would be the result.

Solution to prevent that could be thought of in few seconds- shouldn’t take this long to fix. Just don’t boost anything. Should be like that in any case.
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post #3235 of 3313 Old 01-12-2019, 02:40 AM
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They should add the feature to disable the roll off without the possibility to tweak the curve, so just like the AVR calibration but with the option to limit the correction of the frequency range still. Shouldn’t be that hard.
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post #3236 of 3313 Old 01-12-2019, 07:59 AM
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@Sal1950 Thanks so much for the answer! I like the idea of the app (and I already paid for it ) but between the app hanging up at 99% completion most of the time and the low end roll off, I'll continue to use the AVR for now.

The bad thing is that we'll probably never get notification when it's addressed. Firmware updates are far to vague with most manufacturers.
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post #3237 of 3313 Old 01-12-2019, 04:13 PM
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-7.5dB @ 15hz. Makes it hard to use the app's calibration, with it's 3dB rolloff @ 20hz, versus the AVR.

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post #3238 of 3313 Old 01-12-2019, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lknhomeaudio View Post
-7.5dB @ 15hz. Makes it hard to use the app's calibration, with it's 3dB rolloff @ 20hz, versus the AVR.





Why? What program material have you heard affected by a tiny bit (in perceptual terms) less output at 15Hz?

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post #3239 of 3313 Old 01-12-2019, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by timosilakka View Post
The two pictures look quite similar to me. Any legend what curve and picture is before/after/left/right?
Apologies, the two lines are separate graphs for my left and right front speakers, crossed over to the subs. That's what I was trying to say in the title at the top with "FR/FL" but obviously it wasn't clear enough
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post #3240 of 3313 Old 01-12-2019, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by chadwick537 View Post
I tried using the app for the first time last night, I'm having the same issue where the app won't apply any gains, only cuts. I tried applying modest gain (+3.0dB) on my subwoofer curve starting at about 40hz. Saved and uploaded it to the receiver, ran another REW sweep, literally identical results.

Any suggestions?
I honestly have no clue. I've never experienced this issue or heard of it until the recent reports.

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