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post #31 of 500 Old 01-03-2019, 01:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Jez Baker View Post
LG's press release did say 120 fps, but did not specify and what resolution. Also, aside from the features of HDMI 2.1, a 4K set doesn't need the extra bandwidth of 2.1. My prediction is that LG will call it HDMI 2.1 and include it on all their 2019 4K TVs and it will compromise all the major features of HDMI 2.1, but not be full bandwidth. Then their 8K set will be released later in the year and be the only LG set with full bandwidth 2.1 and they will call it something like "HDMI 2.1 Full Bandwidth."
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post #32 of 500 Old 01-03-2019, 01:31 AM
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Still would like confirmation of a 48gbps chipset.

New BFI and a better smooth gradation are the pieces that interest me the most. I don’t plan to upgrade from my C7 until 10.5g fabs are producing next gen panels but these features will be present so really would like to see them implemented well. Motion improvements will also be welcomed as it’s an area where LG has work to do.

The least interesting part here is 8k for obvious reasons.

The future of receivers will be e-arc with receiver only there for audio processing. The faster we can stop having receivers do video switching, the better.
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post #33 of 500 Old 01-03-2019, 03:54 AM
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Originally Posted by RobertR1 View Post
Still would like confirmation of a 48gbps chipset.

New BFI and a better smooth gradation are the pieces that interest me the most. I don’t plan to upgrade from my C7 until 10.5g fabs are producing next gen panels but these features will be present so really would like to see them implemented well. Motion improvements will also be welcomed as it’s an area where LG has work to do.

The least interesting part here is 8k for obvious reasons.

The future of receivers will be e-arc with receiver only there for audio processing. The faster we can stop having receivers do video switching, the better.
will the next gen panels improve near black uniformity? any idea when they will be coming? I have a C7 as well but probably will not upgrade until this banding problem is a non issue.

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post #34 of 500 Old 01-03-2019, 05:04 AM
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I am not convinced this is the real deal 48 GBps chip-set. You can do all sorts of stupid stuff to 4K/120 Hz like reduce chroma to 4:2:0 8-bit, no HDR, do up-sampling/down-sampling, compression to fit it in 18 GBps HDMI 2.0 chips.

I smell something that stinks. I hope I am wrong.
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post #35 of 500 Old 01-03-2019, 05:34 AM
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Good to hear but what is HDMI 2.1 going to get you today? Not trolling, just asking.


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eARC, if you use a compatible AVR.
So there’s no benefit to e-arc on the tv using a current gen AVR like a denon x series?
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post #36 of 500 Old 01-03-2019, 05:34 AM
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Any reason to think the 2019 models will help mitigate stutter (but not introduce judder) on 24p content?
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post #37 of 500 Old 01-03-2019, 05:48 AM
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Ah man, I have been saving for 2 years to upgrade from my 2016 B6 ... and was waiting for the HDMI 2.1 feature.






Anyone have any ideas on when we'll be able to pre-order the tvs?!







Ooof, now, to tell the wife ...

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post #38 of 500 Old 01-03-2019, 05:58 AM
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>If you're getting a 4K oled and do mostly movie, tv, and netflix watching, hdmi 2.1 does not matter outside of eARC (which can be implemented on a hdmi 2.0 chipset)
>If youre getting a 4k oled and are a pc gamer. hdmi 2.1 matters.
>If you're getting a 8k oled, hdmi 2.1 matters regardless of usage.

Btw the current hdmi 2.0 can do 4K 60 FPS @ 4:4:4 chroma at 8 bit color depth.
And hdmi 2.0 can also do 4K 30 FPS @ 4:4:4 chroma at 16,12 and 10 bit color depth.
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post #39 of 500 Old 01-03-2019, 06:03 AM
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BFI at 120hz is the only noticeable change I see in regards to improvement on the picture/motion front. No top emission, top emission should have been a priority. On the panel side, it seems the same panel with a new AR filter, which shouldnt matter in a dark room.

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post #40 of 500 Old 01-03-2019, 06:06 AM
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Originally Posted by cartload View Post
Any reason to think the 2019 models will help mitigate stutter (but not introduce judder) on 24p content?
The 2019 models will have the Alpha 9 Gen 2 processor, which may or may not improve their TruMotion algorithms. The Alpha 9 Gen 2 press release does not mention TruMotion though, so it seems unlikely.
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post #41 of 500 Old 01-03-2019, 06:12 AM
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Originally Posted by cartload View Post
Any reason to think the 2019 models will help mitigate stutter (but not introduce judder) on 24p content?
The stutter issue is prevalent on panasonic oleds , i saw a sony AF9 I could not spot any 24hz stutter. Panasonic owners some of them also say they dont notice it, however it is a persisting problem depending on your tolerance level and it will be upto panasonic's algorithm in their 2019 oleds whether the stutter is still an issue.
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post #42 of 500 Old 01-03-2019, 06:17 AM
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Originally Posted by RobertR1 View Post
Still would like confirmation of a 48gbps chipset.

New BFI and a better smooth gradation are the pieces that interest me the most. I don’t plan to upgrade from my C7 until 10.5g fabs are producing next gen panels but these features will be present so really would like to see them implemented well. Motion improvements will also be welcomed as it’s an area where LG has work to do.

The least interesting part here is 8k for obvious reasons.

The future of receivers will be e-arc with receiver only there for audio processing. The faster we can stop having receivers do video switching, the better.
I want receivers to continue do hdmi switching, i have 8 hdmi devices currently (and one more in the future to be added) , no tv has 8 hdmi ports, then what would be my solution to use all the devices, have an ugly hdmi switching box hanging off my tv? And the high end receivers dont just do hdmi switching, some of them have great 4k upscaler chips buil in, i know mine does, i convert 1080p to 4k by my receiver than let the lg oled do the upconversion, i find the upscaling a little better than the tv handling it.
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post #43 of 500 Old 01-03-2019, 06:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Menarini View Post
I want receivers to continue do hdmi switching, i have 8 hdmi devices currently (and one more in the future to be added) , no tv has 8 hdmi ports, then what would be my solution to use all the devices, have an ugly hdmi switching box hanging off my tv? And the high end receivers dont just do hdmi switching, some of them have great 4k upscaler chips buil in, i know mine does, i convert 1080p to 4k by my receiver than let the lg oled do the upconversion, i find the upscaling a little better than the tv handling it.
I have no doubt there will be a market for those who have numerous devices but it'd be good as a consumer to have an option of only needing a receiver for audio processing. This would not only reduce costs but makes it so there's one less device in the chain to upgrade as standards evolve. Right now, that options doesn't even exist.
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post #44 of 500 Old 01-03-2019, 06:27 AM
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will the next gen panels improve near black uniformity? any idea when they will be coming? I have a C7 as well but probably will not upgrade until this banding problem is a non issue.
Same here and I'd say don't hold your breath, it'll be dangerous.

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post #45 of 500 Old 01-03-2019, 07:06 AM
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I am not convinced this is the real deal 48 GBps chip-set. You can do all sorts of stupid stuff to 4K/120 Hz like reduce chroma to 4:2:0 8-bit, no HDR, do up-sampling/down-sampling, compression to fit it in 18 GBps HDMI 2.0 chips.

I smell something that stinks. I hope I am wrong.
Ya according to hdmi org, any device carrying a single hdmi 2.1 feature can be slapped a hdmi 2.1 label. And low bandwidth features of hdmi 2.1 , namely eARC, VRR and ALLM can be implemented on 18 gbps chipsets. So until someone gets the tv and dissects it to find out whether it is actually a 48gbps hdmi chipset, we won't know if is true hdmi 2.1 or faux hdmi 2.1.
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post #46 of 500 Old 01-03-2019, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Menarini View Post
The stutter issue is prevalent on panasonic oleds , i saw a sony AF9 I could not spot any 24hz stutter. Panasonic owners some of them also say they dont notice it, however it is a persisting problem depending on your tolerance level and it will be upto panasonic's algorithm in their 2019 oleds whether the stutter is still an issue.
If all motion processing was off on the Sony I don't see how it can handle stutter better than than LG or Panasonic. Stutter is in the nature of OLED due to the instantaneous response time of pixels.
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post #47 of 500 Old 01-03-2019, 07:38 AM
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Any reason to think the 2019 models will help mitigate stutter (but not introduce judder) on 24p content?
I don't think so. 5:5 pulldown at 120FPS should look the same as a 24FPS "VRR".

The biggest thing in regards to motion is an acceptable BFI, which is something they should have done in their 2018 OLEDs. This might help stutter a bit without introducing judder and without decreasing brightness too much. We'll have to see how it handles though, especially flicker
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post #48 of 500 Old 01-03-2019, 08:13 AM
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I don't think so. 5:5 pulldown at 120FPS should look the same as a 24FPS "VRR".

The biggest thing in regards to motion is an acceptable BFI, which is something they should have done in their 2018 OLEDs. This might help stutter a bit without introducing judder and without decreasing brightness too much. We'll have to see how it handles though, especially flicker
Brightness will still take a hit, with a higher BFI rate you would reduce the flicker visible to eyes. Current oleds with 60hz have almost unwatchable bfi bcause of the flicker while bfi on lcd's that do 120hz is much more watchable. So oled with 120hz bfi might be catching up in this department but brightness reduction will still be present.
Regarding your previous post to me, I saw the AF9 with sony's motion processing engaged, sony is known for their best motion processing algorithms so doesn't make sense watching a sony oled having every motion processing feature turned off. If you have all MI or bfi turned off, then you'll also have to deal with pulldown judder on movie based content which is something i dont like, so i do engage motion processing on oleds. And i know about stutter, it is caused by the very fast pixel response time of oleds, the effect is noticeable to some people especially when the camera pans slowly in movies in and out or to the sides. But on sony and lg oleds, with motion processing engaged it's not an issue. If you do a search on youtube or on forums, you'll find most complaints of 24hz stutter on panasonic oleds.
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post #49 of 500 Old 01-03-2019, 08:36 AM
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Wonder if the new OLEDs will be certified IMAX enhanced...
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So there’s no benefit to e-arc on the tv using a current gen AVR like a denon x series?
My Denon 8500H will be offered a 2.1 HDMI board upgrade this Summer 2019, as far as I know its the first AVR that's mentioned for 2.1
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post #50 of 500 Old 01-03-2019, 09:00 AM
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Hi Mark Henninger, thanks a lot for the news.

Beware that the first HDMI2.1 chipsets will support control-plane signalling features such as VRR and ALLM, but their data-plane bandwidth limit could still be 18Gbps.

Just 4K 120fps doesnt make it a true HDMI2.1 chipset, as there are other two data plane variables missing: chroma sub-sampling and color bit depth.
Beware that the data plane bandwidth requirements of 4K 120fps 8-bit (SDR) 4:2:0 actually fits in the 18Gbps limit of HDMI2.0.

If a source device such as a PC manages to output via HDMI port 4K 120fps 8-bit (SDR) 4:2:0, LG marketing team could call it 4K 120fps, even if its just 8-bit SDR, even if the chipset can only do 18Gbps.
Beware of this trick, as it would be just 8-bit SDR.

Check the math below with different data plane variables combination, that result in different bandwidth requirements on the video transmission chain:
_____________
4K @ 120fps @ 8bit per color (not HDR)
3840pixel x 2160pixel x (24bit + 12bit)/pixel x 120frame/second =
35831808000 bits/s = 35.8Gbps @ RGB/Y’CbCr 4:4:4
23887872000 bits/s = 23.8Gbps @ Y’CbCr 4:2:2
17915904000 bits/s = 17.9Gbps @ Y’CbCr 4:2:0 <--- (Beware of this trick, its just 8-bit SDR)

4K @ 120fps @ 10bit per color (HDR)
3840pixel x 2160pixel x (30bit + 15bit)/pixel x 120frame/second =
44789760000 bits/s = 44.8Gbps @ RGB/Y’CbCr 4:4:4
29859840000 bits/s = 29.8Gbps @ Y’CbCr 4:2:2
22394880000 bits/s = 22.4Gbps @ Y’CbCr 4:2:0 <------- Stored Content in HDR 10bit

4K @ 120fps @ 12bit per color (HDR)
3840pixel x 2160pixel x (36bit + 18bit)/pixel x 120frame/second =
53747712000 bits/s = 53.7Gbps @ RGB/Y’CbCr 4:4:4
35831808000 bits/s = 35.8Gbps @ Y’CbCr 4:2:2 <------- What is sent via HDMI, BELOW HDMI2.1 48Gbps limit
26873856000 bits/s = 26.8Gbps @ Y’CbCr 4:2:0
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post #51 of 500 Old 01-03-2019, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by olqxqipz View Post
It is mainly only relevant if you are a PC user. HDMI 2.0 can't even do 4k 60fps HDR 4:4:4

HDMI 2.1 will be 4k 120fps HDR 4:4:4 which will be future proof.
It's relevant for PC monitors, not TVs that don't properly support custom resolutions, refresh rates, and/or colors on HDMI 2.0, let alone 2.1.

Practically guarantee these new TVs won't support 4K 120 as a selectable option, and trying to force it from the Nvidia Control Panel or CRU will cause glitches or just fail.

that goes double for manufacturers that use smoke and mirrors and not support the full 48G

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post #52 of 500 Old 01-03-2019, 09:24 AM
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Brightness will still take a hit, with a higher BFI rate you would reduce the flicker visible to eyes. Current oleds with 60hz have almost unwatchable bfi bcause of the flicker while bfi on lcd's that do 120hz is much more watchable. So oled with 120hz bfi might be catching up in this department but brightness reduction will still be present.
Regarding your previous post to me, I saw the AF9 with sony's motion processing engaged, sony is known for their best motion processing algorithms so doesn't make sense watching a sony oled having every motion processing feature turned off. If you have all MI or bfi turned off, then you'll also have to deal with pulldown judder on movie based content which is something i dont like, so i do engage motion processing on oleds. And i know about stutter, it is caused by the very fast pixel response time of oleds, the effect is noticeable to some people especially when the camera pans slowly in movies in and out or to the sides. But on sony and lg oleds, with motion processing engaged it's not an issue. If you do a search on youtube or on forums, you'll find most complaints of 24hz stutter on panasonic oleds.
Agree on the BFI. I wonder if it possible that 2018 OLEDs can get this update? The panel is already 120hz.

Regarding stutter, I notice the stutter on the LG C8 during slow panning shots. Yes, motion interpolation significantly reduces this, but it introduces artifacts and soap opera effect, which many purists dont like. Also you can always remove pulldown judder by performing 5:5 pulldown (Real Cinema setting on the LG), but the stutter will remain unless you give in to the soap opera effect.
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post #53 of 500 Old 01-03-2019, 09:48 AM
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will the next gen panels improve near black uniformity? any idea when they will be coming? I have a C7 as well but probably will not upgrade until this banding problem is a non issue.
March / April......
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post #54 of 500 Old 01-03-2019, 09:59 AM
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How does "25% black frame cycle" equate to "120hz" BFI? That's fewer black frames than the current 50% BFI implementation, which runs at 60hz. So the new mode should be operating at 30hz, right? The panel itself is still 120hz.

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post #55 of 500 Old 01-03-2019, 10:06 AM
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PC/HTPC gamers can literally take advantage of these features right now. This is huge for me, having the ability to do 4K120 with VRR, matching my PC monitor for motion and input lag, while having far better visual quality? That's a huge win for us.

On the console gaming sides it is a little more dicey. The Xbox consoles do support VRR. The effective range will be the problem there. Needs to be low frame-rate compensation to handle the common sub-30 fps situations that you get on console. Sony and Nintendo don't support it but the next-gen Sony console will.
Are there any PC video cards that can do HDMI compatible VRR right now?
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post #56 of 500 Old 01-03-2019, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by guitarguy316 View Post
So there’s no benefit to e-arc on the tv using a current gen AVR like a denon x series?
Some 2017 and 2018 Denon and Marantz have eARC support already.

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post #57 of 500 Old 01-03-2019, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Haiej View Post
Hi Mark Henninger, thanks a lot for the news.

Beware that the first HDMI2.1 chipsets will support control-plane signalling features such as VRR and ALLM, but their data-plane bandwidth limit could still be 18Gbps.

Just 4K 120fps doesnt make it a true HDMI2.1 chipset, as there are other two data plane variables missing: chroma sub-sampling and color bit depth.
Beware that the data plane bandwidth requirements of 4K 120fps 8-bit (SDR) 4:2:0 actually fits in the 18Gbps limit of HDMI2.0.

If a source device such as a PC manages to output via HDMI port 4K 120fps 8-bit (SDR) 4:2:0, LG marketing team could call it 4K 120fps, even if its just 8-bit SDR, even if the chipset can only do 18Gbps.
Beware of this trick, as it would be just 8-bit SDR.

Check the math below with different data plane variables combination, that result in different bandwidth requirements on the video transmission chain:
_____________
4K @ 120fps @ 8bit per color (not HDR)
3840pixel x 2160pixel x (24bit + 12bit)/pixel x 120frame/second =
35831808000 bits/s = 35.8Gbps @ RGB/Y’CbCr 4:4:4
23887872000 bits/s = 23.8Gbps @ Y’CbCr 4:2:2
17915904000 bits/s = 17.9Gbps @ Y’CbCr 4:2:0 <--- (Beware of this trick, its just 8-bit SDR)

4K @ 120fps @ 10bit per color (HDR)
3840pixel x 2160pixel x (30bit + 15bit)/pixel x 120frame/second =
44789760000 bits/s = 44.8Gbps @ RGB/Y’CbCr 4:4:4
29859840000 bits/s = 29.8Gbps @ Y’CbCr 4:2:2
22394880000 bits/s = 22.4Gbps @ Y’CbCr 4:2:0 <------- Stored Content in HDR 10bit

4K @ 120fps @ 12bit per color (HDR)
3840pixel x 2160pixel x (36bit + 18bit)/pixel x 120frame/second =
53747712000 bits/s = 53.7Gbps @ RGB/Y’CbCr 4:4:4
35831808000 bits/s = 35.8Gbps @ Y’CbCr 4:2:2 <------- What is sent via HDMI, BELOW HDMI2.1 48Gbps limit
26873856000 bits/s = 26.8Gbps @ Y’CbCr 4:2:0
Thx for the details, can you give a breakout - or a link to the breakout method - of Audio / Video / other here regarding HDMI 2.1 full spec?
I see you only showing video as a changing variable....or is audio so small bandwidth wise it's not a factor ... so Dolby Atmos = Auro3D = DTS:X from bandwidth point??
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post #58 of 500 Old 01-03-2019, 10:42 AM
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I am so freaking excited, I am so glad it's full fledged HDMI 2.1 and not a bridge. Glad I waited to upgrade.

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post #59 of 500 Old 01-03-2019, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lsorensen View Post
Are there any PC video cards that can do HDMI compatible VRR right now?

Yes, AMD GPUs since the R9 (2013?) and now some Intel parts can do VRR over HDMI.

LG OLED65B7 | Yamaha v661 | Aperion 5.1 w/ SVS sub | PS4 Pro | Xbox One X | HTPC (i7-7700K, 1080 Ti, Define Nano S)
Pioneer 5020FD | Panasonic 46S30 | Hitachi P50V701
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post #60 of 500 Old 01-03-2019, 10:53 AM
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According to Vincent Teoh's latest video put out today after the LG press release - the 2019 LG OLEDs will have full, true HDMI 2.1 @ 48 Gbps.

This is a game changer for many - and a poo-poo to all of the naysayers on here who said it wouldn't happen

I wonder if this press release had anything to do with the price of the 65" C8 being lowered to $2,999 today...

Shopping List:
TV: Samsung Q9FN, or LG C8, or Sony A9F or Z9F
Blu-ray: Samsung M9700, or Sony X1000, or Pioneer Elite LX500, or Panasonic UB9000
Soundbar: Samsung N950, or Sennheiser Ambeo, or...
AVR and Speakers: Marantz 8012, or... and GE Triton Reference, or...

Last edited by New24K; 01-03-2019 at 11:47 AM.
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