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post #1291 of 2274 Old 01-11-2019, 10:17 PM - Thread Starter
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post #1292 of 2274 Old 01-11-2019, 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Pultzar View Post
HTPC with RGB should be the most reliable for these test patterns in terms of seeing what the optics are up to?
Yes, I put my pc into 3840x2160 RGB 8 FULL then I put DPI scaling to 100% (it wants to default to 300%). Then I open chrome, drag the image into chrome, and hit F11 to enter KIOSK mode.

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post #1293 of 2274 Old 01-11-2019, 11:19 PM
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post #1294 of 2274 Old 01-11-2019, 11:34 PM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
Note that it is only the RED and the BLUE wherein it does that with the horizontal text. All the other colors are two thin lines. With the RED and the BLUE it has gone from two fat lines to one fat line plus one thin line... This is not perfect, but since almost every other aspect is near perfect, I am more than happy with the performance now. Sure it's weird why the horizontal RED and BLUE are doing this but it's a significant improvement nonetheless, and let's just say I won't be losing any sleep over it...

...More like I will be losing sleep due to taking contrast measurements

The purples is doing it too.
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post #1295 of 2274 Old 01-12-2019, 12:31 AM
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The purples is doing it too.
Yes this looks weird, my Sony VW675 is showing it the same way, I’m using PC, RGB output and Windows 10 foto viewer.
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post #1296 of 2274 Old 01-12-2019, 12:35 AM
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@woofer

Please update your NX9 with the new firmware, and test it against your Z1, are they closer now?
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post #1297 of 2274 Old 01-12-2019, 01:02 AM
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@woofer

Please update your NX9 with the new firmware, and test it against your Z1, are they closer now?
Will do, BUT my sample ( pre 1.16) already renders the QBF the same as Nigels,s sample now does with the 1.17 ver..
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post #1298 of 2274 Old 01-12-2019, 01:15 AM
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UPDATE

Hi everyone,

Sorry for the delay, I had to take care of something and then worst timing possible my camera developed a fault rendering it unusable until I have it repaired, so I have had to switch to using my crappy backup camera...

So the v1.17 Firmware has had the following benefits:

(1) Malfunctioning Dynamic Iris = 100% FIXED

(2) Video Noise Issue = 95% IMPROVED

(3) Sharpness & MTF = IMPROVED

(4) But here is the biggest surprise of all:


QUICK BROWN FOX:



Almost all the weird stuff has gone...

And I can now see the native 4K pixel structure:



And the horizontal RED and BLUE have gone from THIS:



To THIS:



And the WHITE has gone from THIS, with weird purple flaring:



To THIS, without weird purple flaring:



Measurements coming up next shortly...

There really seems to be a software/firmware issue here based on how the red and blue channels are looking. The thick-thin-thick-thin lines are not going to be an artifact of the lens especially as this doesn't show up with green.

My old RS1 shows the pattern flawlessly if I use my HTPC connected directly to the projector. However if I switch my computer to use "duplicate this display" and run a monitor and projector at the same time, I do get a thick-thin-thick-thin effect although it is even more pronounced.

If this is a problem with the JVC firmware, I really hope they can get it fixed. Artifacts like this make computer text a lot less crisp than it could be. As I use my projector as a computer display often, that could be a deal breaker.
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post #1299 of 2274 Old 01-12-2019, 01:50 AM
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Originally Posted by mirodk View Post
Yes this looks weird, my Sony VW675 is showing it the same way, I’m using PC, RGB output and Windows 10 foto viewer.
Are you sure that doesn't do any scaling of the image? Does it show it 100% photo no taskbar, no window border etc? I think that foto viewer was annoying me and I force uninstalled it so I can't test how it behaves lol.

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Originally Posted by Pultzar View Post
My old RS1 shows the pattern flawlessly if I use my HTPC connected directly to the projector. However if I switch my computer to use "duplicate this display" and run a monitor and projector at the same time, I do get a thick-thin-thick-thin effect although it is even more pronounced.
What is the resolution of the monitor? If you use duplicate display, both resolutions are set identically to the least common denominator. It's possible your projector isn't pure 1080p when in duplicate display mode.

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post #1300 of 2274 Old 01-12-2019, 02:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Dj Dee View Post
I don't understand you, but so you understand I used for this measurements I picked a Profile Natural , D65, gama 2.4.not touched any settings.
OK, got it, I think that perhaps goes some way to explaining it.
Because of the way these units work internally with their CMS and the gamma / colour tables for factory calibration / autocal it doesn't make sense to report that comparison of high vs low lamp I believe. Because you don't know the state of the internal calibration tables.

For me the really useful contrasts are probably;

1) Uncalibrated optical engine contrast - this is measured in Profile off with all processing disabled. You would expect high vs low lamp to be very similar, unless the extra lamp heat or higher rate of cooling has some effect on the panel contrast. For my X7900 at -7 the difference between these two modes is pretty small - around 5-10%.

2) Calibrated D65 optical engine contrast - this is measured in Profile off with just RGB sliders adjusted to bring peak white to D65. This is the contrast you can get with an external 3DLUT.

3) Fully calibrated contrast in specified modes - where it is probably best to follow JVC autocal and then calibrate via onboard CMS.

I think it is probably a waste of time reporting / measuring differences in contrast for high vs low lamp if the above aren't controlled - you could literally be measuring almost anything!
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post #1301 of 2274 Old 01-12-2019, 02:12 AM
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[QUOTE=markmon1;57424330]Are you sure that doesn't do any scaling of the image? Does it show it 100% photo no taskbar, no window border etc? I think that foto viewer was annoying me and I force uninstalled it so I can't test how it behaves lol.


No scaling, I can only see the PNG picture and the individual pixel, one pixel wide, can clearly be seen on the black and white letters, but the blue, red and violet is like ARROWs the green looks okay.
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post #1302 of 2274 Old 01-12-2019, 02:13 AM
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OK, got it, I think that perhaps goes some way to explaining it.
Because of the way these units work internally with their CMS and the gamma / colour tables for factory calibration / autocal it doesn't make sense to report that comparison of high vs low lamp I believe. Because you don't know the state of the internal calibration tables.

For me the really useful contrasts are probably;

1) Uncalibrated optical engine contrast - this is measured in Profile off with all processing disabled. You would expect high vs low lamp to be very similar, unless the extra lamp heat or higher rate of cooling has some effect on the panel contrast. For my X7900 at -7 the difference between these two modes is pretty small - around 5-10%.
Hey what is "Profile Off"? He said he used "Profile Natural" which I think just means he went to picture mode "Natural".
Are you meaning the color profile-->color management perhaps?

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post #1303 of 2274 Old 01-12-2019, 02:15 AM
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Originally Posted by mirodk View Post

No scaling, I can only see the PNG picture and the individual pixel, one pixel wide, can clearly be seen on the black and white letters, but the blue, red and violet is like ARROWs the green looks okay.
Ok one more point. When you take your measurement do you first make sure to set DPI scaling to 100%? Right click desktop, select "Display Settings", then make sure "Change the size of text, apps, and other items" is set to 100%. If it's set to anything else, that windows photo app is probably scaling as all those microsoft apps are DPI Aware.

My method is to set that DPI scaling to 100%, then load chrome, drag in the png and press f11. Not sure if this gives you the same results or not.
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post #1304 of 2274 Old 01-12-2019, 02:23 AM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Ok one more point. When you take your measurement do you first make sure to set DPI scaling to 100%? Right click desktop, select "Display Settings", then make sure "Change the size of text, apps, and other items" is set to 100%. If it's set to anything else, that windows photo app is probably scaling as all those microsoft apps are DPI Aware.

My method is to set that DPI scaling to 100%, then load chrome, drag in the png and press f11. Not sure if this gives you the same results or not.
Aha you have a point there, my scaling, if I remember correctly, is on 150%. I will try your method, thanks.
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post #1305 of 2274 Old 01-12-2019, 02:43 AM
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Hey what is "Profile Off"? He said he used "Profile Natural" which I think just means he went to picture mode "Natural".
Are you meaning the color profile-->color management perhaps?
"Colour profile off" - at least in the outgoing DLA-X series - appears to disable most (if not all) the internal calibration tables for gamma and colour management, and gets you as close as possible to you sending pixels and the panels being driven to those levels. Annoyingly for those of us doing external 3DLUT calibration there isn't a Profile off equivalent with the filter removed.

Hi did use "colour profile natural" - which means the internal CMS is engaged. The JVC internals have separate gamma calibrations behind the scenes for high / low lamp and filter on / off, plus separate colour calibrations for each of those 4 "slots" at various iris settings. This means that you can have very different results from measuring what appears to be the same mode, depending on the data in the table.

It is possible that something else is the cause of the 30% increased native contrast for -7 high vs low - maybe the panels are heated up more, or cooled more, giving higher contrast, or maybe the lamp spectrum changed a lot between modes so there is a lot more green energy in low lamp you have to get rid of - but at the moment for these results it is impossible to work out where the contrast bump is coming from.

---

It is a really interesting result to see +30% native contrast just from changing lamp mode, so it merits some analysis. Usually high vs low lamp mode increase in luminance isn't much more than +40%! - so if the result is true it means either black barely changed from engaging high lamp or the lumens increase was much more than +40%.
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post #1306 of 2274 Old 01-12-2019, 02:50 AM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
OK, got it, I think that perhaps goes some way to explaining it.
Because of the way these units work internally with their CMS and the gamma / colour tables for factory calibration / autocal it doesn't make sense to report that comparison of high vs low lamp I believe. Because you don't know the state of the internal calibration tables.

For me the really useful contrasts are probably;

1) Uncalibrated optical engine contrast - this is measured in Profile off with all processing disabled. You would expect high vs low lamp to be very similar, unless the extra lamp heat or higher rate of cooling has some effect on the panel contrast. For my X7900 at -7 the difference between these two modes is pretty small - around 5-10%.

2) Calibrated D65 optical engine contrast - this is measured in Profile off with just RGB sliders adjusted to bring peak white to D65. This is the contrast you can get with an external 3DLUT.

3) Fully calibrated contrast in specified modes - where it is probably best to follow JVC autocal and then calibrate via onboard CMS.

I think it is probably a waste of time reporting / measuring differences in contrast for high vs low lamp if the above aren't controlled - you could literally be measuring almost anything!

Ok This was to check the difference between me and ARROWs XN9 . He will post exactly the same or have posted the same, but this thread explodes so its impossible to follow hehe


1. High and low will have differences just like I posted 100% shore. If not something is wrong. But if -7 in low lamp and -7 in high lamp had the same light measurement in 100 ire the measurements would have been more alike or alike.


2. I might be wrong here, but I think that Profile off is the same as not adjusted. You see that there are no change at all if you turn off to on. For me everything else will not be logic.


3. If the projector has a good linear response, and color are good. No need for JVC autocal.
But if you have a gamma drop that is hard to correct manually when calibrating, a autocal is the best/only option if you want it perfect. Or you can just calibrate normally with the 11point gamma with "JVC autocal" together with Calman pro. Also work perfect.


Also my measurements are accurate, also took the lowest matured data to post . Also like I talked with ARROW on the phone, -7 is a setting that many use. Therefore a good indication what to expect of this projector. In my cinema I use -12 16FL so for me just good to know in other settings.

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post #1307 of 2274 Old 01-12-2019, 02:53 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
For those worrying about THIS one-thin-line-plus-one-fat line regarding only the horizontal RED and BLUE text...

... I say don't worry
I don't think it is worth worrying about, but it has to be worth trying to figure out as there must be something, somewhere processing-wise that either can't or isn't being defeated. I'd be a little frustrated if I invested in 4K panels and couldn't work out how to drive them all to my bidding...

Might be worth looking with profile off to bypass as much as possible of the CMS, as well as with all the various motion gubbins toggled as well as low latency mode.
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post #1308 of 2274 Old 01-12-2019, 03:07 AM
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2. I might be wrong here, but I think that Profile off is the same as not adjusted. You see that there are no change at all if you turn off to on. For me everything else will not be logic.
Yes, you are wrong here

Profile off (at least on DLA-X) disables most of the CMS; you end up with very wrong white point as a result. The RGB gamut points reflect the panel primaries, and the gamma calibration is bypassed. But if you're trying to figure out the optical performance, it is preferable.

Just using "Natural" will leave CMS enabled, so and the panel native white point and gamut is adjusted to make it look more "normal". Also the gamma calibration is applied.
However the high vs low lamp white points will be quite different if it isn't calibrated, and who knows what the factory tables have in them (there are different tables for High and Low lamp). This might cause significant contrast difference (because black is just panel native).

If you want to report contrast in Natural it's ok I guess but then you have to at least match the white point to D65 otherwise it's not a useful number to compare for hi vs low lamp.

---

Anyway, I don't want to derail thread. If you're interested to talk about it offline we can PM maybe, or talk in the contrast thread.
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post #1309 of 2274 Old 01-12-2019, 03:55 AM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
Yes, you are wrong here

Profile off (at least on DLA-X) disables most of the CMS; you end up with very wrong white point as a result. The RGB gamut points reflect the panel primaries, and the gamma calibration is bypassed. But if you're trying to figure out the optical performance, it is preferable.

Just using "Natural" will leave CMS enabled, so and the panel native white point and gamut is adjusted to make it look more "normal". Also the gamma calibration is applied.
However the high vs low lamp white points will be quite different if it isn't calibrated, and who knows what the factory tables have in them (there are different tables for High and Low lamp). This might cause significant contrast difference (because black is just panel native).

If you want to report contrast in Natural it's ok I guess but then you have to at least match the white point to D65 otherwise it's not a useful number to compare for hi vs low lamp.

---

Anyway, I don't want to derail thread. If you're interested to talk about it offline we can PM maybe, or talk in the contrast thread.
I see now what you're saying. I cant select color profile "OFF" in "Natural". I have to go to one of the user modes for it. And then the only gamma allowed is "high bright".

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talking abut colour profiles. with this new range, From my memory when watched the jvc video, was it the "cinema" profile that engaged the p3 filter ? "natural" would not I imagine. does it mean you use 'natural' for SDR/blu-ray and such and 'Cinema' for und HDR ? this is just for out of box ?

or does it just engage p3 filter automatically when it detects uhd HDR or something ?

just wondering how the new range work.

it seems there is some change in selecting profiles and such ?

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post #1311 of 2274 Old 01-12-2019, 04:03 AM
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talking abut colour profiles. with this new range, From my memory when watched the jvc video, was it the "cinema" profile that engaged the p3 filter ? "natural" would not I imagine. does it mean you use 'natural' for SDR/blu-ray and such and 'Cinema' for und HDR ? this is just for out of box ?

or does it just engage p3 filter automatically when it detects uhd HDR or something ?

just wondering how the new range work.

it seems there is some change in selecting profiles and such ?
I believe cinema does not engage the filter but film1 does.

Video: JVC RS640 135" screen in pure black room no light, htpc nvidia 1080ti.
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post #1312 of 2274 Old 01-12-2019, 04:17 AM
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I see now what you're saying. I cant select color profile "OFF" in "Natural". I have to go to one of the user modes for it. And then the only gamma allowed is "high bright".
Yes, it gets you as close as possible to the raw optical engine performance, everything else (REC709 gamut, gamma 2.4) is layered on top of the panel characteristics by the CMS in the projector. It is interesting to explore as you can see how much processing happens to get you to a "watchable" image. To give an example; if you send 100% green to the projector in Profile off you should just get green pixels. If you send 100% green in a mode which is trying to do REC709 colourspace you'll perhaps have some amount of green being sent together with some blue to pull the green colour back closer to where it should be on the charts.

You can use profile off to see what may be achievable by just adjusting the RGB to bring peak white back down to D65 - this gives you the maximum achievable calibrated white, ignoring what the CMS might be trying to do to fight you. This is the limit of the optical calibrated contrast.

It might be that the CMS stops you achieving this contrast in one or other modes because of baked-in choices or because of parameters in the calibration tables.

From my point of view I'm interested to know exactly where the +30% increase in contrast measured from low to high lamp just because it is an interesting oddity to explore - by exploring these quirks is where I find I learn the most about how stuff works under the hood.
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post #1313 of 2274 Old 01-12-2019, 04:23 AM
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I got FW1.17 yesterday and have it installed also on my N7.
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I got FW1.17 yesterday and have it installed also on my N7.


Thoughts?
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post #1315 of 2274 Old 01-12-2019, 05:03 AM
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Thoughts?
Unfortunately I havent had the time yet to really try it out. Just got it installed. I really should be single again
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post #1316 of 2274 Old 01-12-2019, 05:05 AM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
Yes, you are wrong here

Profile off (at least on DLA-X) disables most of the CMS; you end up with very wrong white point as a result. The RGB gamut points reflect the panel primaries, and the gamma calibration is bypassed. But if you're trying to figure out the optical performance, it is preferable.

Just using "Natural" will leave CMS enabled, so and the panel native white point and gamut is adjusted to make it look more "normal". Also the gamma calibration is applied.
However the high vs low lamp white points will be quite different if it isn't calibrated, and who knows what the factory tables have in them (there are different tables for High and Low lamp). This might cause significant contrast difference (because black is just panel native).

If you want to report contrast in Natural it's ok I guess but then you have to at least match the white point to D65 otherwise it's not a useful number to compare for hi vs low lamp.

---

Anyway, I don't want to derail thread. If you're interested to talk about it offline we can PM maybe, or talk in the contrast thread.

Then I understand what you mean. But leaving it off is the same as all adjustments to max. In that picked example Natural.
Rest we take on PM. Think that its misunderstanding both ways here
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Last edited by Dj Dee; 01-12-2019 at 05:11 AM.
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post #1317 of 2274 Old 01-12-2019, 05:19 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
UPDATE

Hi everyone,

Sorry for the delay, I had to take care of something and then worst timing possible my camera developed a fault rendering it unusable until I have it repaired, so I have had to switch to using my crappy backup camera...

So the v1.17 Firmware has had the following benefits:

(1) Malfunctioning Dynamic Iris = 100% FIXED

(2) Video Noise Issue = 95% IMPROVED

(3) Sharpness & MTF = IMPROVED

(4) But here is the biggest surprise of all:


QUICK BROWN FOX:

Spoiler!
That’s an excellent improvement! Amazing that they were able to make such an improvement via firmware.

Like Javs has said, you have to wonder if e-shift was stuck on somehow - easy to test, just turn it on whilst displaying the QBF pattern, and see if the previous issues reappear.

As others have said, still a slight issue on the vertical bars on red and blue, but still I’d wager that pattern is rendering better than 90% of projectors out there.
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post #1318 of 2274 Old 01-12-2019, 05:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Drem View Post
Unfortunately I havent had the time yet to really try it out. Just got it installed. I really should be single again
what is the firmware install process like ?

"Technology is a drug. We can't get enough of it."


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post #1319 of 2274 Old 01-12-2019, 05:26 AM - Thread Starter
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what is the firmware install process like ?
You copy the files onto a USB flash drive and the plug it into the projector... The projector then asks if you want to do the firmware update... You then select OK... DONE!

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post #1320 of 2274 Old 01-12-2019, 05:30 AM
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You copy the files onto a USB flash drive and the plug it into the projector... The projector then asks if you want to do the firmware update... You then select OK... DONE!

oh excellent ! that sounds easy as pie.... so much easier than the confounded system before with the adapter and what not

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