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post #61 of 104 Old 12-28-2018, 12:03 PM
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How much better will Atmos sound compared to a regular True HD or DTSHD audio track?
The sound quality will be the same (the Atmos format uses TrueHD lossless packing for the audio). The only difference will be the element of height (2D ring of sound will become a 3D bubble of sound).
Gotcha. Thanks for the answer. Can't wait to be able to check out Atmos.
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post #62 of 104 Old 12-28-2018, 12:10 PM
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Now that we have the Atmos mixing software for mixing sound in a 3d environment, I am ready for a sound bubble, we have a sound bowl right now...…...hurry up and add the floor speakers so we can get a bubble...



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post #63 of 104 Old 12-28-2018, 03:25 PM
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Now that we have the Atmos mixing software for mixing sound in a 3d environment, I am ready for a sound bubble, we have a sound bowl right now...…...hurry up and add the floor speakers so we can get a bubble...[IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/IMG]
Pushing limits is what keeps it fresh and helps sell merch...….
I am digging your floor speaker idea, implementation would be a nightmare, but cool none the less.
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post #64 of 104 Old 12-29-2018, 01:38 AM
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I'm a renter so I can't drill into the ceiling, so I had to use Dolby elevation speakers, which has it's advantage/disadvantage[s], in any case I agree with unretarded that it's very much mix dependent. The Dolby demos are just a blast, but most movies I watched was just ok, though some were pretty awesome. This includes both encoded Atmos, and DSU mixed.
However since this is a music forum, I find DSU for 2ch music horrendous. Before this I was listening 2ch music with DPL II music engaged and I loved it, but DSU simply destroys it IMO. In my stubbornness I turned off the elevation speakers, and luckily that restored my enjoyment of SS listening of the stereo tracks. Still a bit too much steered to the surrounds but serviceable nonetheless. Unlike the old DPL II, DSU can't be tweaked regarding the "panorama" setting, and the "center spread" is only on and off, no steps to fine tune it.
I do have the Kraftwerk live BD that has Atmos, but I haven't fired it up yet, but in any case I don't find the idea of object based mix much beneficial for music, and I doubt it will gain much in that realm. YMMV.
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post #65 of 104 Old 12-29-2018, 08:49 AM
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I do have the Kraftwerk live BD that has Atmos, but I haven't fired it up yet, but in any case I don't find the idea of object based mix much beneficial for music, and I doubt it will gain much in that realm. YMMV.
First of all the Kraftwerk disc is pretty good in ATMOS.

Secondly, if you were able to listen to REM's Automatic For The People, first the 2003 DVDA in 5.1 and then in 2017 Blu Ray in ATMOS. That comparison will reveal how ATMOS creates a more emotional and revealing listening experience. The sound stage on the 5.1 suddenly sounds pretty small when demoed against the ATMOS disc.
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post #66 of 104 Old 12-29-2018, 05:31 PM
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First of all the Kraftwerk disc is pretty good in ATMOS.

Secondly, if you were able to listen to REM's Automatic For The People, first the 2003 DVDA in 5.1 and then in 2017 Blu Ray in ATMOS. That comparison will reveal how ATMOS creates a more emotional and revealing listening experience. The sound stage on the 5.1 suddenly sounds pretty small when demoed against the ATMOS disc.
Well I'm willing to keep an open mind, however even if I like what I hear I have a feeling that Atmos won't be much of a thing for music only, simply based on the poor acceptance of MCH music over the last 20 years or so, especially if it remains exclusively on physical discs.
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post #67 of 104 Old 12-29-2018, 05:48 PM
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Here is some made in/ for Atmos music, plays from a usb stick or straight from pc if you are set up for that.

http://mattdareywolf.com/



I agree stereo music upmixed is not very good at all, but made for Atmos is great.
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post #68 of 104 Old 12-30-2018, 05:25 AM
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I find DSU upmixer to do a wonderful job on upmixing 5.1 to 5.1.4, all of the Steven Wilson catalog sounds amazing.

Even 2ch music benefits, at least my favorite genre, prog-rock does. But nothing beats a native Atmos mix, that is spectacular.

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post #69 of 104 Old 12-30-2018, 06:14 AM - Thread Starter
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We seem to have gone off topic again 🙂
My setup is actually Auro 3D speaker layout and I use Auro Matic up mix for everything and it sounds as good as native Atmos.
Music up mixed to Auro sounds amazing. Live concerts sound just like you are there in the crowd.......
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post #70 of 104 Old 12-30-2018, 01:36 PM
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We seem to have gone off topic again 🙂
My setup is actually Auro 3D speaker layout and I use Auro Matic up mix for everything and it sounds as good as native Atmos.
Music up mixed to Auro sounds amazing. Live concerts sound just like you are there in the crowd.......


That's not how it started, must have been on topic at some point...…..


So I have just completed my home theatre and sat down to watch an atmos movie and am bitterly disappointed - it just sounds like my old 5.1 system from 15yrs ago
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post #71 of 104 Old 12-31-2018, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by JonFo View Post
I find DSU upmixer to do a wonderful job on upmixing 5.1 to 5.1.4, all of the Steven Wilson catalog sounds amazing.

Even 2ch music benefits, at least my favorite genre, prog-rock does. But nothing beats a native Atmos mix, that is spectacular.
I didn't try 5.1 music yet, but back in the day I did 7.1 DPLIIX over 5.1 discreet, and I didn't care for that too, however it doesn't mean I will hate the 5.1+DSU, will give that a spin soon.
Played my Kraftwerk 3D disc and naturally that sounded great in Atmos, though I must say it was very good in Dolby THD 5.1 as well.

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post #72 of 104 Old 01-03-2019, 01:38 PM
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That's not how it started, must have been on topic at some point...…..


So I have just completed my home theatre and sat down to watch an atmos movie and am bitterly disappointed - it just sounds like my old 5.1 system from 15yrs ago
Not surprising. I have a 7.2 system that is almost too enveloping now. To have ceiling speakers would simply be overkill. The honest folks who have ATMOS will tell you the truth that very few movies benefit from Atmos. This is the reason I believe your money is better spent on great electronics from a legacy surround system rather than have a mediocre Atmos system.
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post #73 of 104 Old 01-03-2019, 05:41 PM
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Not surprising. I have a 7.2 system that is almost too enveloping now. To have ceiling speakers would simply be overkill. The honest folks who have ATMOS will tell you the truth that very few movies benefit from Atmos. This is the reason I believe your money is better spent on great electronics from a legacy surround system rather than have a mediocre Atmos system.
You just keep grinding that axe... Do you think all the forum members here are idiots who are incapable of grasping your point so you need to keep repeating it? If you don't think they're mentally deficient, do you really think you're going to convert the other forum members posting in this thread with your frequently recycled rant about Atmos?

I'm at a bit of a loss what you're trying to accomplish. Are you getting paid per anti-Atmos post or something?
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post #74 of 104 Old 01-03-2019, 06:30 PM
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You just keep grinding that axe... Do you think all the forum members here are idiots who are incapable of grasping your point so you need to keep repeating it? If you don't think they're mentally deficient, do you really think you're going to convert the other forum members posting in this thread with your frequently recycled rant about Atmos?

I'm at a bit of a loss what you're trying to accomplish. Are you getting paid per anti-Atmos post or something?
I am just giving an opinion Please don't let it disturb you to a degree it causes problems. I have just been given an infraction so stay civil and do not take my posts as a personal assault. My sentiments are based on years of being an audio consultant in the '70's. I like a surround codec, but I can wait and go to Disney World if I want to be awed with sound. I am not trying to duplicate that experience in my home out of pure practicality. So I favor better electronics over codecs. High end processors expand the sound stage to a degree you won't need any more enveloping. I feel too much enveloping running 7.2. But, then again, don't let this upset you. It's just my opinion that is primarily for the original poster to give him my opinion on what's important.
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post #75 of 104 Old 01-03-2019, 07:19 PM
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Gbaby, I gotcha and know where you're comin' from. It's ain't nothin' but a Dolby-thang. Atmos is a tool to keep the man down because Atmos is literally talking down to us, but is making us think it's coming from a different direction. I don't like things messing with me, so I can fully understand your position. When I hear things I want them to come at me straight - mano-a-mano. That's why I only run mono and sit a foot away from that sole speaker, so it's right in my face. Join the revolution, my AVS brothers! We can take down this system, speaker by speaker. Death to the false gods, including those whacky-all in one Atmos soundbars - those are really messing with our perception of reality!
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post #76 of 104 Old 01-03-2019, 08:34 PM
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I am just giving an opinion Please don't let it disturb you to a degree it causes problems. I have just been given an infraction so stay civil and do not take my posts as a personal assault. My sentiments are based on years of being an audio consultant in the '70's. I like a surround codec, but I can wait and go to Disney World if I want to be awed with sound. I am not trying to duplicate that experience in my home out of pure practicality. So I favor better electronics over codecs. High end processors expand the sound stage to a degree you won't need any more enveloping. I feel too much enveloping running 7.2. But, then again, don't let this upset you. It's just my opinion that is primarily for the original poster to give him my opinion on what's important.
You now have 12 posts in the thread of 75 posts that more or less state the same thing. Perhaps you can give us an estimate on how many posts you think you'll need to make before the OP will get the point you're trying to make. Maybe you can also enlighten us as to why you think the OP still hasn't gotten your point in the 12 posts you've already made.
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post #77 of 104 Old 01-04-2019, 07:17 AM
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Gbaby, I gotcha and know where you're comin' from. It's ain't nothin' but a Dolby-thang. Atmos is a tool to keep the man down because Atmos is literally talking down to us, but is making us think it's coming from a different direction. I don't like things messing with me, so I can fully understand your position. When I hear things I want them to come at me straight - mano-a-mano. That's why I only run mono and sit a foot away from that sole speaker, so it's right in my face. Join the revolution, my AVS brothers! We can take down this system, speaker by speaker. Death to the false gods, including those whacky-all in one Atmos soundbars - those are really messing with our perception of reality!

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You now have 12 posts in the thread of 75 posts that more or less state the same thing. Perhaps you can give us an estimate on how many posts you think you'll need to make before the OP will get the point you're trying to make. Maybe you can also enlighten us as to why you think the OP still hasn't gotten your point in the 12 posts you've already made.
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post #78 of 104 Old 01-04-2019, 08:12 AM
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Thanks for your continued valuable contributions to the thread!
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post #79 of 104 Old 01-04-2019, 08:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Don't feed the TROLLS !!
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post #80 of 104 Old 01-04-2019, 08:41 AM
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Thanks for your continued valuable contributions to the thread!
Well he did "say" something different.... you've gotta give him credit at least for that.
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post #81 of 104 Old 01-04-2019, 12:26 PM
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Not surprising. I have a 7.2 system that is almost too enveloping now. To have ceiling speakers would simply be overkill. The honest folks who have ATMOS will tell you the truth that very few movies benefit from Atmos. This is the reason I believe your money is better spent on great electronics from a legacy surround system rather than have a mediocre Atmos system.
Well, who want's a mediocre system of any configuration? Most of us arrived to Atmos from 5.1-7.1-9.1 systems, well not counting those Atmos soundbars. This is the same argument we heard for many years from 2ch guys that a good properly set up stereo will beat a typical surround system for music. These people are often forgetting that most good surround system started with a good 2ch set up to begin with, well the same would be true at least on forums like this, for object based systems. People [like me] upgrading from an existing high quality surround system to Atmos/DTSX.
But here is the thing object based mixing on paper is the biggest leap in cinema soundtrack history in the last 20 years, there is just no question there, the pickle as it has been already mentioned is how it is executed, mainly how soundtracks are mixed. This is a creative process and such every creator will have a different idea of how they will use this tool. Now I have my reservations about strictly for music reproductions, but for movies I have no doubt that this is the way forward. Now if you embrace it or not is strictly up to you, I'm not here to change your mind, but regarding your last statement, I consider that a false choice. I can spend as much on a turntable tone arm or a full suit of 5.1 speakers, or a stand alone processor. If I wanted people to improve their overall sound quality I would never bother tell them to get new or more expensive electronics, but better spend it on speakers and room treatment. Those 2 are by far the most important components of what anyone actually hears in any system.
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post #82 of 104 Old 01-04-2019, 02:26 PM
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Well, who want's a mediocre system of any configuration? Most of us arrived to Atmos from 5.1-7.1-9.1 systems, well not counting those Atmos soundbars. This is the same argument we heard for many years from 2ch guys that a good properly set up stereo will beat a typical surround system for music. These people are often forgetting that most good surround system started with a good 2ch set up to begin with, well the same would be true at least on forums like this, for object based systems. People [like me] upgrading from an existing high quality surround system to Atmos/DTSX.
But here is the thing object based mixing on paper is the biggest leap in cinema soundtrack history in the last 20 years, there is just no question there, the pickle as it has been already mentioned is how it is executed, mainly how soundtracks are mixed. This is a creative process and such every creator will have a different idea of how they will use this tool. Now I have my reservations about strictly for music reproductions, but for movies I have no doubt that this is the way forward. Now if you embrace it or not is strictly up to you, I'm not here to change your mind, but regarding your last statement, I consider that a false choice. I can spend as much on a turntable tone arm or a full suit of 5.1 speakers, or a stand alone processor. If I wanted people to improve their overall sound quality I would never bother tell them to get new or more expensive electronics, but better spend it on speakers and room treatment. Those 2 are by far the most important components of what anyone actually hears in any system.
Nice post. I am not a 2 channel man but enjoy music in surround. Its just that after so many processors and pre-amps, I did not really experience great sound with nuance until I moved to what is considered the high end level; a Bryston SP3. It is truly enveloping to me and more sound than I need. I was trying to get the original poster to see a different perspective; to look for quality over quantity. Since that time he has referred to me as a Troll so, I'm done. I see why this country is so divided; we are not kind to each other. But, I appreciate your civility. Most times, I listen to music in 7.1 DPLIIx Music or a proprietary surround codec, from Bryston called Stereo7 7.1. But even then, a few CDs you have to listen to strictly in 2 channel which is the reason for my D/A converter the Bryston BDA-3. From my personal experience in audio, I'd rather have a used 5.1 or 7.1 Classe, Bryston or Krell processor. When playing my SP3, I hear enough envelopment. I drew the line and refuse to allow the industry to tell me what I need. Speakers in ceiling; not in my living room. I do agree with you on spending money on better speaks and room treatment as I do not use EQ. Anyway, what did you trade in to get Atmos?

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I enjoy anything that sounds good, no matter the format, I have my preferences, but I am not going to poo on anyones choice because of that.


I have buddies that swear by mono still...….they have a ton of 60`s rock that was recorded in mono and prefer to play it back in true mono, one speaker....which I get and it does sound good, they are even purists when it comes to mono....one speakers, not 2 speakers producing the same sound....which makes sense from a science stand point, now that I know about how bad it is to have 2 speakers playing the same thing and all the problems that creates.


While I like a good mono record played back on one speaker and think it actually sounds great, I also like Atmos as it sounds great and adds quite a bit in movies and it is even better in the new music that was made for Atmos...….


I do not have to poo on anothers choice of preferred playback to feel secure in my choices.



But that does not mean I have to let misconceptions slide either...….the 2 are not mutually exclusive, correcting misconceptions does not by default mean I am pooing on anothers choices.

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post #84 of 104 Old 01-04-2019, 06:14 PM
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I drew the line and refuse to allow the industry to tell me what I need. Speakers in ceiling; not in my living room
Wow, the first thing you said that makes sense and that explains why you're with the anti-Atmos lobby (membership of 1, of course). If my viewing/listening area were my living room, of course I wouldn't have ceiling speakers, either! Sheesh. I wouldn't have anything more than 2.1, either. I bet if you had a dedicated media area, then you'd be the first to jump on the Atmos train.
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post #85 of 104 Old 01-04-2019, 08:24 PM
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.I bet if you had a dedicated media area, then you'd be the first to jump on the Atmos train.
Maybe? Who knows. But, I can tell you as of now, I am thoroughly satisfied with 7.2 from my SP-3 processor and I have no desire for Atmos or DTS-X or whatever. I have enough envelopment.
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post #86 of 104 Old 01-04-2019, 08:28 PM
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I enjoy anything that sounds good, no matter the format, I have my preferences, but I am not going to poo on anyones choice because of that.


I have buddies that swear by mono still...….they have a ton of 60`s rock that was recorded in mono and prefer to play it back in true mono, one speaker....which I get and it does sound good, they are even purists when it comes to mono....one speakers, not 2 speakers producing the same sound....which makes sense from a science stand point, now that I know about how bad it is to have 2 speakers playing the same thing and all the problems that creates.


While I like a good mono record played back on one speaker and think it actually sounds great, I also like Atmos as it sounds great and adds quite a bit in movies and it is even better in the new music that was made for Atmos...….


I do not have to poo on anothers choice of preferred playback to feel secure in my choices.



But that does not mean I have to let misconceptions slide either...….the 2 are not mutually exclusive, correcting misconceptions does not by default mean I am pooing on anothers choices.
I don't understand how my posts could lead you to make a comment like this.
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post #87 of 104 Old 01-06-2019, 01:27 AM
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Originally Posted by gbaby View Post
Anyway, what did you trade in to get Atmos?
I went from an Integra DTC 9.8 to a Marantz AV7705. They are both Pre/pros and roughly in the same price bracket, inflation adjusted. The Marantz have an obviously much newer DSP section, which is the chief reason I hear any differences between them. I still prefer the old DPLII surround for music though over the new DSU, but that's just me.But DSU and Neural X for non Atmos/ DTS X soundtracks is really awesome.
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post #88 of 104 Old 01-06-2019, 03:46 AM
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I remodelled my room 2 years ago and had the opportunity to buy some ex-display LCR speakers from the higher range than I was previously using. This enabled me to move my existing LCR speakers (plus buying an extra single one) to Atmos channels. I also added room treatment, 2 more subs (total of 4 one in each corner), so I didn't skimp on my Atmos upgrade.

However, I do find that most of the improvement on my 'new' system is having a better LCR and the 4 subs. Even Atmos/DTS:X films still spend much of the time with sound coming from the front. I do get the 'wizz-bang' effects round the room, especially with the Atmos demo disc I have, but it's mostly just ambient effects I find. I also find that using Neural:X upmixer has a negative effect on the sound quality of the front speaker sound (making the centre sound 'thin' almost 'phasey'), so tend to just leave music discs in native format.

In hindsight I would probably have been better off had I sold my previous LCR and just upgraded the LCR and added the extra sub: That has given much more improvement to the sound quality of the system and I'm regularly stunned by the clarity of dialogue, how clear the bass is without having to run the sub(s) hot and just how good it sounds with mostly front mixed content. I've been into 'surround sound' for 20 years and was quite happy with the ambient effect I was getting from 7.1 with 4 tripole surround speakers mounted quite high up in the room, but got sucked into this upgrade even having had a number of demos and being underwhelmed. It just seemed the thing to do and so many people suggested running the wires 'just incase', then the upgraded LCR came up for sale mid build.

I don't think Atmos is a gimmick, but I do think it was rather over-hyped, especially by some UK dealers at the time it came out.

[My Atmos speakers are MK Sound MP150 which are £1,200 each, if it gives some perspective to my opinion and that I've made a serious effect to get a good result].
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post #89 of 104 Old 01-08-2019, 05:45 AM - Thread Starter
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This thread was supposed to be about MY Atmos set up that doesn't like Atmos - not about whether Atmos is any good or anything else.


So back on track - I actually configured the theatre for Auro-3D and used height speakers instead of ceiling speakers as I decided I preferred Auro over Atmos after reading up on their pros, cons, differences and peoples opinions. According to all my research Atmos played over Auro layout is supposed to sound almost as good as Atmos over Atmos layout but today I discovered it doesn't. And the stupid thing about setting up my room for Auro is that there is no Auro source material available to me where I live unless I buy Blu-Rays and they are even hard to get and expensive



So my surrounds and surround heights (defined as 'rear' in the AVR to allow Atmos playback but positioned as surrounds) are at the preferred Auro azimuth of 110degrees (and pointing directly across the room at each other rather than at the MLP as I found this gave a better effect in Auro) and just behind the listening positions and my front heights are (obviously) at the front. So I am actually sitting at the rear of the square defined by the Atmos height speakers.



I downloaded the Amos trailers and played one and found the effect of the noise travelling in a circle around the listener sounded more like a stereo pan at the front. But when I stood up and moved forward the sound suddenly sounded like it was going all around me. I tried repositioning the surrounds and surround heights to point at the MLP and even further in front of it but it didn't make much difference, and no matter where I pointed them it always sounded better when I stood in the middle of them.


I now plan to move my surrounds and surround heights to the rear of the room to put my MLP right in the middle of the height speakers and may even consider installing my ceiling speakers and doing a proper Atmos config. Hopefully that will bring Atmos and better immersion into my setup.


Stay tuned.....................
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post #90 of 104 Old 01-08-2019, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by niterida View Post
This thread was supposed to be about MY Atmos set up that doesn't like Atmos - not about whether Atmos is any good or anything else.
My apologies if I'm one of those who dragged your thread off topic.

I have used an Atmos demo test disc to help fine tune my set up, but I had already positioned my speakers as near to the ideal Atmos positions as I could: I'm more like a 7.1.4 layout, but with the rear surround speakers removed, due to a curtain on the left side of my room restricting where I could fit my side surround.

Funny thing I find is that while this disc highlights the fact that I have a 'gap' behind me due to lack of surround back speakers, when watching typical film content this isn't really noticeable. This might be one of the trailers that you mention? 'Leaf' or something similar as well as a sort of 'This is Atmos' trailer with rain sounds all around. Having the obvious visual clue of where the leaf (or whatever) is supposed to be in the room highlights the rear 'gap' I suppose. I don't fancy another £3k or so for a pair of matching monopole speakers and the hassle of running cables/installing them for a very small ROI (IMHO).

Even with the fine tuning, it is rare that in a film I stop and think 'wow, that sound is coming from above me!' more often I hear a sound from 'outside the room' that I then realise is part of the film. It does pull me out of the film sometimes though, because I go outside to check.

In short; use the Atmos trailers to fine tune it all and make sure it's all working OK, but don't expect it to jump out at you during most typical film content.

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