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post #31 of 59 Old 11-13-2018, 01:12 AM
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Originally Posted by SeeMoreDigital View Post
Don't forget that the OPPO's UDP-20x range also offer a rear HDMI input. And an HDMI ARC function (which means you can send digital stereo/multi-channel audio from your TV to the OPPO and it will transcode it to the analogue audio outputs).
I got it , thanks
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post #32 of 59 Old 11-13-2018, 06:07 AM
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Hi! New member here in the forums.

Question on Oppo and the attraction to its analogue multi-channel out feature.

I too missed the boat on the Oppo units and to make it worse, I'm just now getting into multi-channel sound. Currently I'm looking for a good disc player to read SACDs and blu-ray audio discs.

I have a McIntosh MX121 preamp-procesor which I think is a very good sounding unit (it sounds excellent to my ears anyway -I use it in pure direct mode-no room correction). Can someone explain what the drawback is in using a good BD player like the Pioneer to read an SACD disc, send the signal via HDMI to my MAC pre-amp processor, and have IT decode the signal to analogue multi-channel sound out to my amps? Does HDMI-out somehow degrade the signal before it is processed by a preamp-processor? If you use Bitstream out on a Blu-ray player, isn't it just a digital signal anyway? How can a digital signal be degraded by HDMI?
One of the flaws in HDMI and S/PDIF digital signals are timing variations. The digital signals aren't perfect (they're smeared out, an effect called "dispersion") and the thresholds at which the changes in the digital signals are detected aren't perfectly stable, resulting in what's called "jitter" -- minor timing variations in when the resulting audio signal is detected and regenerated. Some people claim to be able to hear those differences. Higher quality decoding hardware, as is provided in McIntosh pre/pros, can minimize this effect.

Of course, many people prefer to be able to apply an appropriate room equalization algorithm to the audio signal. That requires a digital signal: HDMI, S/PDIF or the use of an ADC on an incoming analog signal.
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post #33 of 59 Old 11-20-2018, 01:38 AM
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I kind of also missed out on getting an Oppo UDP player, so am in a similar situation now, need to buy one, and I cannot. I do have an Oppo Blu-ray, so lower end is covered, but still it would be nice if something were competitive with the UDP-203 (and available). Either there is no higher-end in the USA these days, or the higher-end is all selling out without Oppo in the market. I see tons of Sony, Samsung, LG UHD players, but mostly at the low end. Not finding at all the Pioneer UDP-LX500, and the Panasonic UB9000 seems also no where available. Even the Panasonic UB820 is pretty scarce. Are there any available options that I am missing?
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post #34 of 59 Old 11-20-2018, 04:22 AM
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Originally Posted by pwjones View Post
I kind of also missed out on getting an Oppo UDP player, so am in a similar situation now, need to buy one, and I cannot. I do have an Oppo Blu-ray, so lower end is covered, but still it would be nice if something were competitive with the UDP-203 (and available). Either there is no higher-end in the USA these days, or the higher-end is all selling out without Oppo in the market. I see tons of Sony, Samsung, LG UHD players, but mostly at the low end. Not finding at all the Pioneer UDP-LX500, and the Panasonic UB9000 seems also no where available. Even the Panasonic UB820 is pretty scarce. Are there any available options that I am missing?
The only player that would be close to the 203 would be the Pioneer LX-500. The Panasonic's are not comparable due to the fact that they are not universal players. If all you are looking for is 4K playback grab an inexpensive 4K player to compliment your Oppo (model?) Blu-ray player.

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post #35 of 59 Old 11-20-2018, 11:18 AM
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I would also like to get a new disc player - my present complement of an old Panasonic DVD recorder, a Samsung BluRay player, and a Pioner DV-563A is a little inconvenient, because none will play all of my current library. I was looking at the OPPO 203, and when they announced the 205, I decided to wait. But that turned out to be too expensive, and by the time I reconsidered the 203, all OPPOs had become unavailable. I know the Pioneer LX-500 is recommended, but that's a little too steep. I don't really need 4K, but why cut out future possibilities? Thanks
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post #36 of 59 Old 11-20-2018, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by MTVhike View Post
I would also like to get a new disc player - my present complement of an old Panasonic DVD recorder, a Samsung BluRay player, and a Pioner DV-563A is a little inconvenient, because none will play all of my current library. I was looking at the OPPO 203, and when they announced the 205, I decided to wait. But that turned out to be too expensive, and by the time I reconsidered the 203, all OPPOs had become unavailable. I know the Pioneer LX-500 is recommended, but that's a little too steep. I don't really need 4K, but why cut out future possibilities? Thanks
FWIW, the Sony UBP-X800 (4K UHD Blu-ray disc player) supports both SACD and DVD-A, although it doesn't have any analog outputs.

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post #37 of 59 Old 11-20-2018, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by MTVhike View Post
I would also like to get a new disc player - my present complement of an old Panasonic DVD recorder, a Samsung BluRay player, and a Pioner DV-563A is a little inconvenient, because none will play all of my current library. I was looking at the OPPO 203, and when they announced the 205, I decided to wait. But that turned out to be too expensive, and by the time I reconsidered the 203, all OPPOs had become unavailable. I know the Pioneer LX-500 is recommended, but that's a little too steep. I don't really need 4K, but why cut out future possibilities? Thanks
If you don't need 4K the 103 or 105 would be good alternatives.

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post #38 of 59 Old 11-21-2018, 05:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post
The only player that would be close to the 203 would be the Pioneer LX-500. The Panasonic's are not comparable due to the fact that they are not universal players. If all you are looking for is 4K playback grab an inexpensive 4K player to compliment your Oppo (model?) Blu-ray player.

Bill
It is turning out that the Pioneer UDP-LX500 is difficult to find, and the UDP-LX800 impossible, at least here in the USA. They are not perfect, but per the article (referenced earlier):

http://fromvinyltoplastic.com/pione...rs-first-look/

and in particular the table:



they had to be considered as alternatives to the Oppos I can no longer get. I had good experiences mostly with a Pioneer DVD player (it is still kicking around the house somewhere), so I of course checked their line out. Granted, not sure I should really care that much about the DACs, being realistic, mostly being fed into the receiver via HDMI, that is 95% of the way I would listen. So I guess I would prioritize ability to play UHD and Blu-Ray back cleanly the highest. The streaming I could care less about, I have a Roku Ultra (4k) and there is an Amazon Fire TV Cube (4k) on the way (Black Friday), so those will be handling that particular chore (why both? The Amazon is probably the better/faster hardware, but they keep getting into tiff's with Google and others, so the Roku has better selection). I would have preferred WiFi, to be frank. My Oppo has that, and it is handy for firmware upgrades and downloading previews. I do not mind a unit needing firmware updates, that is I suppose inevitable, but I do prefer that they be automatic, I would prefer not to have to run around with USB-keys or even checking, just prompt me OK and go.

I suppose if I leave the Oppo (BDP-93) I have hooked up, that would cover some of the older format audio disks, and so I could consider the Panasonics. The Panasonic DP UB-820 seems a nice enough unit, somewhat hard to find at the moment, but order-able, and its support for OLED TVs and some of the newer video formats (ex. HDR 10+) seems a tad better than with the Pioneers. I cannot find at all the UB-9000, though that seems closer to the Pioneers (and Oppos) in build quality. But the Panasonics support HDR10, HDR10+, HLG and Dolby Vision, and the HDR optimizer sounds like a nice feature too. That is after all the main thing, the ability to play 4k HDR discs. And at least judging from the Blu-ray experience, that was kind of something the players had to have firmware updates periodically, to do well. I had a Panasonic DVD player/rewriter for years, though it did eventually quit on me, but on the whole, I would say a positive experience.
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post #39 of 59 Old 11-21-2018, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by pwjones View Post
It is turning out that the Pioneer UDP-LX500 is difficult to find, and the UDP-LX800 impossible, at least here in the USA. They are not perfect, but per the article (referenced earlier):

http://fromvinyltoplastic.com/pione...rs-first-look/

and in particular the table:



they had to be considered as alternatives to the Oppos I can no longer get...
I'm surprised that the Panasonic UB9000 is on that list as it can't play SACD's and DVD-A disc's!

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post #40 of 59 Old 11-21-2018, 09:32 AM
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It is turning out that the Pioneer UDP-LX500 is difficult to find, and the UDP-LX800 impossible, at least here in the USA. They are not perfect, but per the article (referenced earlier):
.
In the current world if you want high-end audio plus 4K UHD playback, your most efficient path is with a used Oppo BDP-105 combined with a "cheap" UHD player of your choosing. This combination can be had for less than any of the single player options out there. Oppo still supports all the older players too.
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post #41 of 59 Old 11-22-2018, 08:30 AM
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I'm surprised that the Panasonic UB9000 is on that list as it can't play SACD's and DVD-A disc's!
While I have some SACDs and DVD-As, I also have an Oppo that can play them. What I would prefer is a player that would do them all, just for space and other reasons, what I need mostly is 4k UHD (Dolby Vision, HDR10, HDR10+, HLG) formats, and from what I can sort out, mostly the fullest assortment of those formats are coming from Panasonic. Right now, looks like the Pioneers are in the USA very difficult to get, but then so is the Panasonic UB9000 (February 2019 was the availability date on one site), and the UB820 is orderable, but just at list and only a few sites. The Sony UBX-X800 and UBX-X1000 do play DVD-A and SACD, but have no Dolby Vision capability, the only Sony with that is the UBX-X700 (which lacks DVD-A). So finding something purchasable with all the new video formats and DVD-A and SACD, at least in the USA, is very difficult to impossible at the moment.
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post #42 of 59 Old 11-22-2018, 12:02 PM
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I'm not sure...

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In the current world if you want high-end audio plus 4K UHD playback, your most efficient path is with a used Oppo BDP-105 combined with a "cheap" UHD player of your choosing. This combination can be had for less than any of the single player options out there. Oppo still supports all the older players too.

But I do know I'm shopping for a clean bdp-105 to replace/back up my bdp-95. But if you don't need or want 5.1 analog outputs the Pioneer UDP LX-500 may be a great deal at $999 at B&H - when they come in.

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post #43 of 59 Old 11-28-2018, 07:19 AM
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Using analog 5.1 out is even more niche then playing hi-res, yet a lot of people seem to be hung up on this one feature. Having used my Oppo 105 and the analog outs, I much prefer using the 203 and HDMI. Unless you have a well set up system and excellent room treatments, you are going to need room correction. Plus all the additional listening features of an AVR and the ability to play next generation AMTOS renders the 5.1 outs obsolete.

All IMO of course.
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I agree 100%!

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I agree also. If you need any kind of digital processing downstream from the player (eg, bass management, room EQ), adding an extra A/D and D/A conversion on the player's analog outputs makes little sense. However, JVB Digital sells an audio mod for the 10x and 20x OPPOs called Vanity HD that replaces the audio board's 7.1 analog outputs with digital SPD-IF outputs. The replacement board also includes a high quality DSD to PCM converter and de-jitter buffer before sending the PCM outputs on to an AVR/prepro. This makes for a pristine multi-channel digital path from the source to the AVR/prepro's DACs that is free of jitter and sampling rate conversions that typically come with PCM over HDMI. Even still, this only works for 8 channels, so any surround channels past this limit (like for ATMOS) will not be able to take advantage of these pristine digital paths.

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post #44 of 59 Old 11-28-2018, 09:37 AM
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huh?

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I agree also. If you need any kind of digital processing downstream from the player (eg, bass management, room EQ), adding an extra A/D and D/A conversion on the player's analog outputs makes little sense. However, JVB Digital sells an audio mod for the 10x and 20x OPPOs called Vanity HD that replaces the audio board's 7.1 analog outputs with digital SPD-IF outputs. The replacement board also includes a high quality DSD to PCM converter and de-jitter buffer before sending the PCM outputs on to an AVR/prepro. This makes for a pristine multi-channel digital path from the source to the AVR/prepro's DACs that is free of jitter and sampling rate conversions that typically come with PCM over HDMI. Even still, this only works for 8 channels, so any surround channels past this limit (like for ATMOS) will not be able to take advantage of these pristine digital paths.

The only processor I'm aware of that can assign multiple SPD-IF inputs are some Meridians. Due to bandwidth limitation each SPD-IF can carry at most two converted Hi Rez channels. What am I missing here?

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post #45 of 59 Old 11-28-2018, 09:38 AM
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A noise floor of -115dB is plenty to be able to raise the volume to the threshold of pain without ever hearing the noise floor. In order get it loud enough to hear it, you would have to incur hearing damage.
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post #46 of 59 Old 11-28-2018, 12:48 PM
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However, JVB Digital sells an audio mod for the 10x and 20x OPPOs called Vanity HD that replaces the audio board's 7.1 analog outputs with digital SPD-IF outputs. The replacement board also includes a high quality DSD to PCM converter and de-jitter buffer before sending the PCM outputs on to an AVR/prepro. This makes for a pristine multi-channel digital path from the source to the AVR/prepro's DACs that is free of jitter and sampling rate conversions that typically come with PCM over HDMI. Even still, this only works for 8 channels, so any surround channels past this limit (like for ATMOS) will not be able to take advantage of these pristine digital paths.
I'm not sure how the Vanity HD would work? If it's outputting full resolution digital audio where would it be connected to an AVR/prepro? The JVB Digital site does not go into much detail as to what the system applications would be. At a cost of $849 the Vanity HD module is $300 more than the MSRP of an Oppo 203. Is the SQ that much improved over using HDMI and a stock 203?

http://www.jvbdigital.nl/jvb.asp?cur...itle&title=974

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post #47 of 59 Old 11-28-2018, 11:28 PM
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The only processor I'm aware of that can assign multiple SPD-IF inputs are some Meridians. Due to bandwidth limitation each SPD-IF can carry at most two converted Hi Rez channels. What am I missing here?
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I'm not sure how the Vanity HD would work? If it's outputting full resolution digital audio where would it be connected to an AVR/prepro? The JVB Digital site does not go into much detail as to what the system applications would be. At a cost of $849 the Vanity HD module is $300 more than the MSRP of an Oppo 203. Is the SQ that much improved over using HDMI and a stock 203?

http://www.jvbdigital.nl/jvb.asp?cur...itle&title=974

Bill
Jim, the JVB mod has 4 SPD-IF connectors carrying two channels each as you mentioned, for a total of 8 channels out. I have a Trinnov MC-8 which accepts this many digital inputs on a DB25 connector. I'm guessing the Datasats have a similar capability, but not sure what other AVRs or prepros accept more than 2 SPD-IF channels at hirez.

Bill to my subjective ear, the JVB upgrade made a noticeable difference, especially in smoothing out harshness in the upper mid-range over using the 203's HDMI for audio.
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post #48 of 59 Old 11-29-2018, 05:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Along these lines of HDMI, jitter and all that, one of the reasons I prefer discs that use containerized formats (Dolby TruHD, DTS-HDMA, DTS-X, Dolby Atmos), is that they allow one to totally skip any concerns over those topics, at least in relation to player to preamp links. With the pre-amp unwrapping and de-compressing the contents of the container, it can generate the PCM streams and clock them to sync with with it's own DACs.
Many of Steven Wilson's discs offer the same tracks in PCM (which would be subject to jitter on the HDMI) and in TrueHD, and I find that on my Marantz AV8802 / Oppo 103 combo, the TruHD is a bit cleaner, and maybe more 'dynamic'. But it's minor, and takes a highly resolving system and ears that can hear minutia before it's even detectable.
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post #49 of 59 Old 11-29-2018, 09:56 AM
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There has never been a case in home A/V equipment where jitter was measured as being anywhere near audible levels. Usually it is an order of magnitude below the threshold of audibility, even in inexpensive equipment. The highest rate of jitter ever recorded that I know of was a McIntosh media server, but it was still below audible levels. Jitter really isn't an issue.

DACs don't sync across streams. They cache the stream and play the file once they've buffered enough to play the audio flawlessly. A wrapper is more convenient for playing a file and can offer more features with some software. It doesn't add any quality to the file itself. It's just a wrapper.

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post #50 of 59 Old 12-06-2018, 09:02 AM
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in ARC I trust?

Now that I have a bdp-105 to replace my bdp-95 I could theoretically run a UHD player into my LG oled C7 and use ARC to convert the HD sound to analog into my old Anthem AVM 20.

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post #51 of 59 Old 12-06-2018, 09:11 AM
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Now that I have a bdp-105 to replace my bdp-95 I could theoretically run a UHD player into my LG oled C7 and use ARC to convert the HD sound to analog into my old Anthem AVM 20.
I'd be curious on the SQ of audio being sent to the AVM 20 from ARC. If your UHD player has two HDMI outputs could you connect the HDMI/Audio output to the HDMI input of the 105? Then connect the 5/7.1 analog output of the 105 to the AVM 20. If that's possible with your system configuration wouldn't that be the more direct route?

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post #52 of 59 Old 12-06-2018, 09:16 AM
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Now that I have a bdp-105 to replace my bdp-95 I could theoretically run a UHD player into my LG oled C7 and use ARC to convert the HD sound to analog into my old Anthem AVM 20.
ARC isn't analog: it can provide DD+ and Atmos in some circumstances, though.

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post #53 of 59 Old 12-06-2018, 09:26 AM
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if you look at the manual p.20 Bill...

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Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post
I'd be curious on the SQ of audio being sent to the AVM 20 from ARC. If your UHD player has two HDMI outputs could you connect the HDMI/Audio output to the HDMI input of the 105? Then connect the 5/7.1 analog output of the 105 to the AVM 20. If that's possible with your system configuration wouldn't that be the more direct route?

Bill

The restrictions seem to be tighter on the HDMI input (no Dolby TruHD or DTS HD-MA) than they are on ARC. But that may be misleading.

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post #54 of 59 Old 12-06-2018, 09:50 AM
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the LG C7 can pass TruHD and HD-MA...

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Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post
ARC isn't analog: it can provide DD+ and Atmos in some circumstances, though.

What isn't quite clear from the manual is whether the bdp-105 can accept them through ARC.

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post #55 of 59 Old 12-06-2018, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Jim Pearce View Post
The restrictions seem to be tighter on the HDMI input (no Dolby TruHD or DTS HD-MA) than they are on ARC. But that may be misleading.
I didn't know that as I've never used the HDMI input on Oppo players. Doing a quick read on the audio capabilities of ARC indicated that TrueHD and DTS HD-MA were not available. If true and the audio capabilities of ARC and the Oppo HDMI are similar wouldn't the HDMI input of the 105 be a better alternative? Or you could upgrade your processor to one that has HDMI capability.

Just looked at the 205 manual. The HDMI input doesn't have any audio format restrictions indicated. Good to know if I decide to use the HDMI input in the future.

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post #56 of 59 Old 12-06-2018, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Jim Pearce View Post
The restrictions seem to be tighter on the HDMI input (no Dolby TruHD or DTS HD-MA) than they are on ARC. But that may be misleading.
The BDP-105 will accept lossless audio over HDMI, it just has to be LPCM. So set the source device to decode to LPCM and you're all set. ARC doesn't support lossless audio in any form.
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post #57 of 59 Old 12-06-2018, 12:56 PM
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that makes sense rd...

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Originally Posted by rdgrimes View Post
The BDP-105 will accept lossless audio over HDMI, it just has to be LPCM. So set the source device to decode to LPCM and you're all set. ARC doesn't support lossless audio in any form.

Sounds like the same restrictions as the HDMI input: "... up to 6ch/192kHz or 8ch/96kHzPCM, DolbyDigital, Dolby Digital Plus, DTS and AAC."

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post #58 of 59 Old 12-06-2018, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Jim Pearce View Post
What isn't quite clear from the manual is whether the bdp-105 can accept them through ARC.
As others have mentioned, unlike the regular HDMI input, an HDMI ARC input supports a limited number of formats (much the same as SPDIF).

I currently send multi-channel audio from my LG television to my OPPO UDP-203 via HDMI ARC and in-turn use the OPPO's analogue outputs to pass PCM audio to my stereo amplifiers.

However, before I purchased the UDP-203 I did exactly the same with my OPPO BDP-103

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Last edited by SeeMoreDigital; 12-07-2018 at 02:39 AM. Reason: Clarity
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post #59 of 59 Old 12-06-2018, 03:13 PM
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FWIW, the Sony UBP-X800 (4K UHD Blu-ray disc player) supports both SACD and DVD-A, although it doesn't have any analog outputs.
This seems like a good option. Plays all the formats, including UHD and 3D, and is region-free (well, all the ones sold on Amazon) for blu-ray which is convenient. Looks decent and I like Sony and doesn't cost that much (price talk no-no?), less than the UDP 203 when it was still around.

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